Best if we ignore the battle of the Atlantic then.......
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Best if we ignore the battle of the Atlantic then.......Oh yes, I'm 100% serious. And I haven't finished relevant posting data to this thread.
Wasn't everybody ?Pre war, the RAF was fiercely wedded to the ascendancy of the bomber
The question is if any other fighter of the time, in similar conditions , have done any better? Or perhaps much better?
Now in Europe the Hurricane in late 1941/early 42 was past it's 'best use by date' but then the Japanese aircraft had a number of deficiencies.
And consider the advantages the AVG had at about the same time. One of which was an organized and wide spread early warning system that took about 3 years to work up before the AVG even got there.
The Axis formations came in close enough in time, in each wave, that it was impossible for the CAP to concentrate on any single formation and 12 Me109Fs, for example, would probably have outnumbered the CAP directed against any single formation.
All very interesting.
Just an observation, May 1942, the IJN stumbles across SS Neosho and with no other targets around, puts her down in on raid.
August 1942, how many times did the Germans and Italians attack the SS Ohio (sometimes while sitting still) which still made port?
Granted both were tankers, very tough ships to sink and Ohio did have the benefit of escorts towing/holding up to get her to Malta. Neosho did float for four days before sinking as well. But the IJN put seven quick direct hits on her and one suicide hit in short order.
I'm still of the opinion that the IJN were far more effective ship killers than their allies were.
Just be sure to compare like to like.I think it was pretty much the same. By 1942 the Hurricane was retired as a front line fighter, the Kittyhawk took it's place. The Kittyhawk (and American 'Warhawk' version) were still being used as air superiority fighters in the Med / Italy well into 1944, and it was the same in the CBI and Pacific.
Stukas were the greatest killers of RN destroyersAll very interesting.
Just an observation, May 1942, the IJN stumbles across SS Neosho and with no other targets around, puts her down in on raid.
August 1942, how many times did the Germans and Italians attack the SS Ohio (sometimes while sitting still) which still made port?
Granted both were tankers, very tough ships to sink and Ohio did have the benefit of escorts towing/holding up to get her to Malta. Neosho did float for four days before sinking as well. But the IJN put seven quick direct hits on her and one suicide hit in short order.
I'm still of the opinion that the IJN were far more effective ship killers than their allies were.
Pre war, the RAF was fiercely wedded to the ascendancy of the bomber - to be a bomber pilot was the highest achievement in the RAF. The whole organization was designed around it, fighters were a minor role for 'homeland Defence', but not taken too seriously. Note also the high standards if formation flying the RAF was very proud to demonstrate in its pre war days - 'he's a good chap, flys a tight formation' was high praise indeed.
natural fighter pilots? They tend to be 'rotters' and a bit ragged in the formation flying stakes.
It didn't make it clear but a normal process would be scores and instructor assessments and that I am sure you already know.
It was the policy of the time and one that was formed in the furnace of war, where vast numbers of people were trained. I didn't write it just reported what I found. There is some logic to it for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Were there exceptions to this rule, almost certainly.
For instance a personal view for me is that the stand out pilots were the single seat PR pilots. On their own, without support, often without weapons, many hundreds of miles behind enemy lines, having to navigate precisely without the normal navigation aids in all weathers. That's special. How were they chosen, I don't know, but the general policy was as outlined.
Just be sure to compare like to like.
1942 a very long year, The P-40Es were being delivered from Jan (actually from summer of 1941) through May but Dec of 1942 saw work at the factory being done on the P-40L (Merlin) and M versions.
AS far as 1944 goes in Med/Italy, P-40s may have been used as air superiority fighters but they were sharing that role with P-38s, P-51s, P-47s and Spitfires. Nobody was depending on P-40s (with either engine) to establish air superiority over the front or theater. Used as an escort for attack missions which can fall under the air superiority classification.
This is distinct from the fall of 1942 when they were using P-40Fs in Egypt as an air superiority fighter in general terms.
The attack on the 11th was at dusk into near full dark, and it proved very difficult for the CAP to intercept, which was undoubtedly the Luftwaffe plan.Quite a few waves of Axis bombers at Pedestal didn't have any escort. There don't seem to have been any escorts at all with the attacks on the 11th, or did I miss something?
Lundstrom assessed 4 USN TF AA kills, with the rest of the IJN aircraft brought down by CAP or ditching near their carriers. Total USN TF AA and aerial kill claims far exceeded the number of IJNAF aircraft encountered.Ok so anyway,
Battle of the Eastern Solomons
24-25 August 1942
This is an interesting battle for several reasons. First, it is a relatively even battle - 2 fleet carriers for the US vs. 2 fleet carriers and one light carrier and a Seaplane tender for the Japanese, with both sides having about the same number of land based planes. The Japanese also have some transports and a heavy surface fleet, which was lurking in hopes of either bombarding Guadalcanal and / or engaging the US in a night surface action. Second, this is also interesting because it took place almost at the same time as Pedestal, so the aircraft are more comparable at this point. Worth noting that the Japanese carrier fighters at least are A6M3, which had some problems in terms of range but in combat are probably better than an A6M2. They are faster (more power and shorter wingspan) and carry twice the ammunition. The US are using F4F-4 which are inferior in combat (arguably) to the F4F-3 used at Coral Sea, but they have more of them. Finally, this was another case of both land and carrier aircraft attacking on both sides, contrary to what was stated earlier in this thread.
The Order of Battle for the carrier planes is here.
IJN carrier aircraft:
27 x A6M3, 27 x D3A, and 18 X B5N on the Shokaku
27 x A6M3, 27 x D3A, and 18 x B5N on the Zuikaku
24 x A6M3 and 9 x B5N on the Ryujo (as part of the 'Diversionary Group')
They also had at least 3 submarines and a 'Vanguard Group' consisting of 2 fast battleships (Hei and Kirishima), 3 heavy cruisers, and 7 destroyers.
USN Carrier Aircraft:
27 x F4F-4, 32 x SBD (15 Scout and 17 Dive bomber), 13 x TBF Avenger on the Saratoga /Task Force 11
29 x F4F-4, 35 x SBD (18 Scout and 17 Dive bomber), 15 x TBF Avenger on the Enterprise / Task Force 16
Worth noting that the fast battleship North Carolina and the Atlanta, an enhanced AAA cruiser, were sailing with Task Force 16
The Wasp was also in the general area with another 79 aircraft but was not involved in the battle.
In addition to this, Cactus Air Force consisted of 18 x F4F (USMC), 5 x P-400 (USAAF P-39s), and later 11 x SBD from Enterprise.
Espirtu Santo also has at least 12 x B-17s
PBY Catalinas are operating out of the Santa Cruz islands.
At Rabaul the Japanese had at least 24 x G4M, and the Tainan Air Group which at this time consisted of 14 x A6M
Strikes 24 August
Japanese and Americans had a hard time finding each other due to weather and random war factors. US spots Ryujo but not the others. Japanese don't find US CVs yet.
IJN Attacks
Attack (from Ryujo) vs. Henderson Field
14 x A6M, 6 x B5N are sent to Henderson field, joined by 24 x G4M and another 14 x A6M from Rabaul. But the Rabaul planes hit weather and turn back.
Ryujo strike tangles with Cactus Air Force. 3 x B5N, 3 x A6M3, and 3 x "US Fighters" are shot down.
Then IJN floatplane scout spot US CVs at 14:25, radios position prior to getting shot down. IJN strike launches at 14:50.
Simultaneously, 2 x SBD Scout planes spot the main force, radio USN but the report gets lost, then they attack causing light damage to Shokaku, but causing 5 of the A6Ms with the strike force to peel off to chase them. Escort is reduced from 15 to 10 A6Ms.
Nagumo launches a second wave at 16:00
First wave vs. Enterprise
10 (originally 15) x A6M, 27 x D3A
Cap of 53 (!!) F4F but badly managed, only a few engage with the IJN bombers.
20 IJN bombers attack Enterprise. At least six F4F follow the D3As into their attack dives, and four are shot down by US AAA.
First wave of 9 D3A misses.
Second wave hits Enterprise with 3 bombs.
7 x D3A attack the BB North Carolina but all are shot down by AAA.
IJN loses 25 aircraft in total. The US lost 6, with 5 pilots (four of these were F4Fs shot down by friendly fire).
Enterprise seems to be badly damaged, but damage / fire control teams put the fires out and were able to resume flight ops at 17:46 (1 hour after being hit)
Second wave (couldn't find a target)
9 x A6M, 27 x D3A
(lost 5 aircraft anyway)
USN Attacks
USN Carrier Strike vs Ryujo
US strike consisting of 38 aircraft (mix of F4F, SBD, and TBF)
SBD bombers hit Ryujo between 3 and 5 times, and a TBF apparently (they aren't certain) also hit with 1 torpedo.
US B-17s also attacked Ryujo but apparently got no hits.
Ryujo sank at nightfall and her surviving aircrew ditched their planes, having nowhere to land.
Scout Attacks
In addition to the two SBD scout bombers that attacked Ryujo at ~14:30,
two more SBDs spot the seaplane tender Chitose in the early evening, scoring two near misses which badly damaged the ship, putting it out of action.
Strikes 25 August
Cactus Attack + Big Bombers
18 aircraft from Henderson Field attack the transport convoy, heavily damaging Jintsu and sinking the transport Kinryu Maru.
Then four B-17s from Espiritu Santo bombed the destroyer Mutsuki which was rescuing crew and survivors from the Kinryu Maru and they sunk it.
During the battle the Japanese lost 25 aircraft and 61 Aircrew, the US lost 6 x F4F 2 x SBD, for 7 aircrew. The B-17s sunk a ship!
Enterprise sailed back to Hawaii and was back on patrol by 16October, and would participate in the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands on 26 October. That's next.
You can't shoot down a plane more than once?????????Total USN TF AA and aerial kill claims far exceeded the number of IJNAF aircraft encountered.
Well, there can be situations where CAP and AA will claim the same aircraft, but here's a breakdown of USN Kill claims:You can't shoot down a plane more than once?????????
For the whole action against TF-16, U.S. claims for strike aircraft destroyed in aerial combat totaled fifty-two (fifteen more than the Japanese had) (see table 7.2). At the same time the Japanese claimed twelve Grummans (one unconfirmed) (see tables 7.3 and 7.4).
The carrier commanders appeared satisfied with the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat, although the Japanese Zero still excelled in performance. Several officers commented on the visible deterioration of enemy pilot skills. Some old and bitter controversies never came up. For example, the reduced ammunition supply of the six-gun F4F-4s appeared not to be a problem. Only a few VF pilots ran dry of bullets. However, the F4F-4's limited range still caused worry, despite the belly tanks. The fleet anxiously awaited the arrival of the gull-wing Vought F4U-1 Corsairs, and some fighter leaders also desired a special carrier-based interceptor (foreshadowing the Grumman F8F Bearcat).