Admiral Beez
Major
Produced by BSA and used extensively in British AFVs, the Besa was not used in aircraft, AFAIK Besa machine gun - Wikipedia
Why not?
Why not?
Was the Besa machine gun ever considered for RAF use?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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The Besa wasn't in existence when the Browning was selected over the current competition (Vickers, Lewis, Madsen, Spandau, Kiraleji, Darne and Hispano) in 1934.
The Air Ministry had had their eye on the Browning ever since being favourably impressed by a demonstration in October 1923.
There was a passing interest in the 15mm Besa later, early in the war, but I don't think ever seriously considered.
The Air Ministry had had their eye on the Browning ever since being favourably impressed by a demonstration in October 1923.
There was a passing interest in the 15mm Besa later, early in the war, but I don't think ever seriously considered.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
It fired 8mm Mauser ammunition maybe that put the RAF off
Shortround6
Major General
The Besa was a replacement for the water cooled Vickers in armoured vehicles. It was never intended to replace even the Vickers gun for the regular troops.
Since it was intended for sustained fire it was of heavy construction and used a very heavy barrel, Weight went from about 47-48lbs on the early guns to about 54 lbs on the later guns ( cuts to lighten the gun were abandoned to speed production), rate of fire was either 450 or 750rpm depending on a selector lever that moved a spring buffer in and out of postion. later guns were made to fire at either the fast or slow rate to simplify production.
It may have required too much work to turn it into a suitable aircraft gun. It was too heavy and fired too slow in it's regular form
It was adopted in 8mm Mauser to avoid having to change it to .303. The complication of supply being accepted for the armoured corp.
The 15mm Besa weighed about 125lbs so there was very little weight advantage in fitting them vs the 20mm Hispano gun
Since it was intended for sustained fire it was of heavy construction and used a very heavy barrel, Weight went from about 47-48lbs on the early guns to about 54 lbs on the later guns ( cuts to lighten the gun were abandoned to speed production), rate of fire was either 450 or 750rpm depending on a selector lever that moved a spring buffer in and out of postion. later guns were made to fire at either the fast or slow rate to simplify production.
It may have required too much work to turn it into a suitable aircraft gun. It was too heavy and fired too slow in it's regular form
It was adopted in 8mm Mauser to avoid having to change it to .303. The complication of supply being accepted for the armoured corp.
The 15mm Besa weighed about 125lbs so there was very little weight advantage in fitting them vs the 20mm Hispano gun
- Thread starter
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Admiral Beez
Major
Makes me wonder why the British army bothered with the Besa. Why not go system wide, like in the RN and RAF with .303 for mg and 20mm cannon for heavier targets.
Shortround6
Major General
Timing and intended use.
The 15mm Besa was adopted and in service at about the same time as the 20mm Hispano. However the 15mm Besa may have been a better choice for tank and armoured car turrets.
It was to replace the .5 in Vickers which was still water cooled in the vehicle turrets. It was essentially a full automatic anti-tank rifle. The 15mm Besa is over 50% more powerful than the US .50 cal and almost 2 1/2 times more powerful than the British .5in machine gun round.
The 7.92mm Besa was to replace the water cooled .303 Vickers in armoured vehicles.
There seem to have been very few complaints about the 7.92mm version in service. It was reliable and was rather noted for accuracy and since the British took so long to get HE ammo into their tanks a machine gun that was accurate at 800yds or more was a nice thing to have.
The 15mm Besa, despite being adopted in the fall of 1939 was in use in small numbers in France in the spring of 1940. At this time the 20mm Hispano was still drum (or magazine) fed which would have been a royal pain in a small turret.
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The 15mm Besa may have had better armor penetration than the 20mm Hispano. Maybe just enough to win a bar bet but then most tanks didn't have much for armor in 1939-40
The 15mm Besa was adopted and in service at about the same time as the 20mm Hispano. However the 15mm Besa may have been a better choice for tank and armoured car turrets.
It was to replace the .5 in Vickers which was still water cooled in the vehicle turrets. It was essentially a full automatic anti-tank rifle. The 15mm Besa is over 50% more powerful than the US .50 cal and almost 2 1/2 times more powerful than the British .5in machine gun round.
The 7.92mm Besa was to replace the water cooled .303 Vickers in armoured vehicles.
There seem to have been very few complaints about the 7.92mm version in service. It was reliable and was rather noted for accuracy and since the British took so long to get HE ammo into their tanks a machine gun that was accurate at 800yds or more was a nice thing to have.
The 15mm Besa, despite being adopted in the fall of 1939 was in use in small numbers in France in the spring of 1940. At this time the 20mm Hispano was still drum (or magazine) fed which would have been a royal pain in a small turret.
The 15mm Besa may have had better armor penetration than the 20mm Hispano. Maybe just enough to win a bar bet but then most tanks didn't have much for armor in 1939-40
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
Replacing 0,303" rimmed with 7,92mm rimless was a live possibility in the army from pre WW2 to post WW2. Hence the SLEM in 7.92mm. Having the BESA in 7.92 was both expedient and gave a cheaper Vickers replacement option. Then 'war were declared' and changing ammunition was not an option.
The matter could be argued in another thread but (very) personally I think that with no WW2 by 1945/50 the British army would be on a 7.92mm standard with BESA as MMG, BREN in 7.92mm as LMG and a 7.92mm semi automatic rifle. The latter also a foreign design licence made. WW2 experience took them down a different road and the USA cocked it all up IOTL But this is all a topic to be discussed elsewhere.
OT yes the 15mm BESA was considered as an Hispano alternative for the RAF were the Hispano factory lost to enemy action but not a lot of effort ever spent on it. In armoured cars the disturbance from the chassis to recoil made semi automatic fire the preferred option as the lack of effective HE meant that accuracy was vital in meeting AT fire.
The army needed a replacement for the Vickers in armoured vehicles. The size, weight and vulnerability of a water cooled installation plus limited Vickers production meant that an air cooled armoured MMG was necessary.
The matter could be argued in another thread but (very) personally I think that with no WW2 by 1945/50 the British army would be on a 7.92mm standard with BESA as MMG, BREN in 7.92mm as LMG and a 7.92mm semi automatic rifle. The latter also a foreign design licence made. WW2 experience took them down a different road and the USA cocked it all up IOTL But this is all a topic to be discussed elsewhere.
OT yes the 15mm BESA was considered as an Hispano alternative for the RAF were the Hispano factory lost to enemy action but not a lot of effort ever spent on it. In armoured cars the disturbance from the chassis to recoil made semi automatic fire the preferred option as the lack of effective HE meant that accuracy was vital in meeting AT fire.
The army needed a replacement for the Vickers in armoured vehicles. The size, weight and vulnerability of a water cooled installation plus limited Vickers production meant that an air cooled armoured MMG was necessary.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Don't know if the big BESA had HE but the original Czech ZB60 version had an HE round but a 72 gram round is not going to have much explosive. The British Army did tests in the 60s to decide which round to use in armoured cars and it was found that an HE round under 30mm was a waste of effort.
Unless of course your using.50 BMG M2 that thing could kill a German tank so hard the dead grandparents of the tank designer would feel the pain
The main interest seemed to be as a turret gun -- as the size of the Hispano was causing trouble.
Shortround6
Major General
Rolls Royce had worked on a machine gun, both in US .50 cal and using the Boys anti-tank rifle cartridge.
A problem with the Hispano in a turret mount was that it still wanted a forward barrel support eve if you could fit the breech and belt into the turret.
A problem with the Hispano in a turret mount was that it still wanted a forward barrel support eve if you could fit the breech and belt into the turret.
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