Was the F-5 alone in its lack of radars in the 1960s?

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Nodeo-Franvier

Airman 1st Class
125
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Jul 13, 2020
It's always puzzle me how this plane without a radar sold so well,How did it do so well against radar armed competitors(Mirage III,F-104,English Electric,MiG-21) or does the contemporary version of those plane lack radars as well?
 
Early series of the MiG-21 and the F-104 didn't have much of a radar fitted in the nose either, just a simple range-finding radar for use with the guns. The Hawker Hunter never had a radar either, as far as I'm aware of?
 
Cost, reliability, & simplicity, were the original selling points. While the F-5A/B were were not quite given away under the US military aid programs, the cost to most users was relatively very low. For a country that had no modern jet aircraft it was very attractive - ie something (we can afford) is better than nothing. The multi-role capability (ie day fighter, ground attack, & training) was also part of its charm.

The F-5A/B had no radar, but the F-5E/F did beginning in the early-1970s. It was a short range (~10 nm) search & track unit with ranging/lead computing for the gun. Subsequently better radars were fitted, all still relatively short range primarily due to the small size of the radar dish/receiver.
 
It may be a little simplistic but in my mind the USA had three outstanding aircraft in the 1960's and 1970's, that were hugely successful for the same basic reasons. They were at least as good as the opposition, they did what they were designed to do, were reliable and were relatively inexpensive. The three aircraft were: -
  • The F5E
  • The Hercules
  • The F4
Now I am confident that it could be argued that others could be added to the list i.e. the A4. but the three mentioned dominated their individual markets, across the world, and did so for a number of years. That is my acid test

I was at a Farnborough Airshow once with a relation of my wife, he being a reasonably influential engineer from Bae, watching a C130 perform. He turned to me and said that he couldn't understand why people still liked the C130. I simply said to his 'Because its, cheap, reliable and does what people want it to do, and if the British Aerospace Industry had remembered that, it would be in a much better state'. He didn't try to disagree with me.
 
Maybe the F-104 and Bell UH-1 could also be added to the list?

A lot of US aircraft were obviously not going to sell well because of their original roles made them to large, complex and specialised - strategic bombers such as the B-52 and the B-58 Hustler were hardly going to sell well abroad. The same could be said for naval carrierborne aircraft such as the A-6 Intruder or A-5 Vigilante, or even the Vought A-7 and F-8.
 
Ovod said:
Maybe the F-104 and Bell UH-1 could also be added to the list?

A lot of US aircraft were obviously not going to sell well because of their original roles made them to large, complex and specialised - strategic bombers such as the B-52 and the B-58 Hustler were hardly going to sell well abroad. The same could be said for naval carrierborne aircraft such as the A-6 Intruder or A-5 Vigilante, or even the Vought A-7 and F-8.
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If you are going to include Helicopters then I would include two

The Huey and the Sea King, both of which were licenced to other countries and served more of less everywhere.

F104 I wouldn't include. Yes it served in Nato but only very limited penetration elsewhere, I also don't believe it better than the opposition (in a military or commercial manner) and it also lacked reliability.
 
Nodeo-Franvier said:
No wonders the F-16 totally beat it.
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The Huey Cobra - the YF-17 did have radar

1659805747865.png
 
Nodeo-Franvier said:
It's always puzzle me how this plane without a radar sold so well,
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From Canada's perspective, where the CF-116 (CF-5) Freedom Fighter was the first radar-less fighter since the CL-13 Sabre fielded by the CAF, it was cheap and available for license production. Canada was operating the Voodoo and Starfighter, introduced to the RCAF in 1961 and yet still somewhat top drawer fighters. In 1968, Canada joined the Panavia Tornado program, demonstrating its commitment to high tech, next gen combat aviation.

In this light the CF-5 was an uncompetitive, parsimonious politician's choice that when deployed to CFB Baden–Soellingen would have needlessly killed Canadian airmen had it been forced to fight the Soviets. Our lads deserved a better aircraft. Mind you, in peacetime, the CAF airmen apparently thoroughly enjoyed the CF-5's aerobatics. And in its defence, Canada was using them as fighter-bombers, like the radar-less Sepcat Jaguar, MiG-27 and Mirage 5.
 
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Admiral Beez said:
From Canada's perspective, where the CF-116 (CF-5) Freedom Fighter was the first radar-less fighter since the CL-13 Sabre fielded by the CAF, it was cheap and available for license production. Canada was operating the Voodoo and Starfighter, introduced to the RCAF in 1961 and yet still somewhat top drawer fighters. In 1968, Canada joined the Panavia Tornado program, demonstrating its commitment to high tech, next gen combat aviation.

In this light the CF-5 was an uncompetitive, parsimonious politician's choice that when deployed to CFB Baden–Soellingen would have needlessly killed Canadian airmen had it been forced to fight the Soviets. Our lads deserved a better aircraft. Mind you, in peacetime, the CAF airmen apparently thoroughly enjoyed the CF-5's aerobatics. And in its defence, Canada was using them as fighter-bombers, like the radar-less Sepcat Jaguar, MiG-27 and Mirage 5.
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How effective was the 1960s radar? Apparently A2A missile against fighter size target was no good back then since the Jewish Mirage III got most of their kill using cannon but they should be effective for gun laying and detecting enemies location right?
 
Admiral Beez said:
In this light the CF-5 was an uncompetitive, parsimonious politician's choice that when deployed to CFB Baden–Soellingen would have needlessly killed Canadian airmen had it been forced to fight the Soviets. Our lads deserved a better aircraft. Mind you, in peacetime, the CAF airmen apparently thoroughly enjoyed the CF-5's aerobatics. And in its defence, Canada was using them as fighter-bombers, like the radar-less Sepcat Jaguar, MiG-27 and Mirage 5.
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OK - I'm throwing the BS flag on this! First, during that period, there was nothing wrong with the F-5/ CF-5 series considering their size, mission and cost. The Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland flew them (and I believe the Swiss still do) and the F-5 showed, if properly flown and operated, could handle itself well against Soviet equipment during the Iran/ Iraq. war. Canada NEVER deployed CF-5s (CF-116) to Europe in large numbers (I believe no more than 16 were ever deployed) and in the return provided a good manufacturing and later sustainment program for companies like Canadair and Bristol Aerospace. Their mission in Europe was to be part of a rapid deployment force and at any given time only a few CF-5s were in Europe serving in this role. According to Wiki, he last deployment to Europe was in 1987 when four CF-5As arrived at CFB Baden–Soellingen. I know many people who flew the F-5 and met a few Canadian pilots (when I lived in Canada) who loved the aircraft and had no issues going up against the Soviet forces of that time. I got to work on ex CAF CF-5s while in Botswana and IMO were great aircraft and if anything were very under-rated!
 
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