Was the F-5 alone in its lack of radars in the 1960s?

[ARTESH]

I like the Atheist F-22 myself.

Mine are Pagan Tomcat and Tangri Cobra (TOW).

 

[ARTESH]

What's a Jewish Mirage?

Refers to Israeli Defensive Forces and their Aviation. That's a common term in Middle East to combine religion with other things, Including Geography.

 

[GTX]

By the way, Iran claims they are building new F-5's, but I think in reality it is a rebuild program.

The Iran Aircraft Manufacturing Industrial Company currently produces three aircraft, the Azarakhsh, Saeqeh, and Kowsar, derived from the F-5.

 

[ARTESH]

The Iran Aircraft Manufacturing Industrial Company currently produces three aircraft, the Azarakhsh, Saeqeh, and Kowsar, derived from the F-5.

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However, the numbers are very low, and mostly for show and morale!!!

On paper, they claim "modernized", "reinforced" and "strengthen" the AF! But first, they need to be tested on a real modern combat against at least same level enemy Aircrafts and second, which is way more important than first, it's a big thing! Bigger than changing color and name.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I read an article, I think in Air Progress in the late 70's, that mentioned the VN F-5 sale as a possibility.

Well to be honest I'll call utter BS on who ever wrote that, it sounds like some writer's fantasia to sell copy.

By the way, Iran claims they are building new F-5's, but I think in reality it is a rebuild program.

This is true and Iran made their own version of the F-5 a few years ago.

HESA Kowsar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Glider]

F-104 operators "outside NATO":
Japan - 198 from 1961-1986
Taiwan - ~244 from 1960-1998
Pakistan - 22 from 1961-1975
Jordan - 36 from 1967-1982

And "inside NATO" was:
USA - 277 from 1958-1975
Canada - 238 from 1961-1986
Germany - 915 from 1960-1991,
Belgium - 112 from 1963-1983,
Netherlands - 138 from 1962-1984,
Italy - 326 from 1963-2004,
Norway - 45 from 1963-1983,
Denmark 51 from 1964-1986,
Greece - 152 from 1964-1993,
Turkey - "just over 400" from 1963-1996,
Spain - 21 from 1965-1972 (the only operator to never lose an airframe)

Note that these totals include many transfers between operators (some airframes having served in 3 or more different nations) and some transferred as spares sources.

Now compare that to the list of countries outside Nato who flew the F5

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The F-5 is a great aircraft. Is it in the same category as an F-16 or F-15? No, of course not, however, it is a capable aircraft that fills a specific need and role as a light and cheap fighter. That is what it was designed to be. Nothing more, and nothing less. It more than fulfills its intended role.

It's like buying a basic model car. You aren't getting all the bells and whistles, but you know that up front. It's great for someone on a budget.

When I arrived at Moron AB in Spain for Desert Shield in Aug 1990, the Spaniards were still flying a squadron of them on their side of the base. I never saw them at altitude, but down low they could turn-and-burn pretty damned well; their maneuvers were sharp, crisp, and on-point.

I believe they were E models, with two 20mm under the nose, and I bet they could put a hurtin' on a MiG-21 in a straight-up fight. They also had either two or four (I cannot remember any more) Sidewinders, two on tip-rails and perhaps two underwing.

IMHO it would definitely be one of those "it depends on the pilot" encounters.

 

[MIflyer]

I recall a B-52 pilot saying that up above 30,000 ft one day he got on the tail of a couple of Korean F-5's and they could not shake him, and dove away.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Iran Aircraft Manufacturing Industrial Company currently produces three aircraft, the Azarakhsh, Saeqeh, and Kowsar, derived from the F-5.

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Didn't one of them show pics of the cockpit and it looked plastic with a car tape deck/radio in the center of it? Or was that their "Stealth Fighter" that looked like it was manufactured by Hasbro?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

When I arrived at Moron AB in Spain for Desert Shield in Aug 1990, the Spaniards were still flying a squadron of them on their side of the base. I never saw them at altitude, but down low they could turn-and-burn pretty damned well; their maneuvers were sharp, crisp, and on-point.

I believe they were E models, with two 20mm under the nose, and I bet they could put a hurtin' on a MiG-21 in a straight-up fight. They also had either two or four (I cannot remember any more) Sidewinders, two on tip-rails and perhaps two underwing.

IMHO it would definitely be one of those "it depends on the pilot" encounters.

Yeah, like I said its a capable outstanding aircraft as long as it is used as it was intended.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

When I arrived at Moron AB in Spain for Desert Shield in Aug 1990, the Spaniards were still flying a squadron of them on their side of the base. I never saw them at altitude, but down low they could turn-and-burn pretty damned well; their maneuvers were sharp, crisp, and on-point.

I believe they were E models, with two 20mm under the nose, and I bet they could put a hurtin' on a MiG-21 in a straight-up fight. They also had either two or four (I cannot remember any more) Sidewinders, two on tip-rails and perhaps two underwing.

IMHO it would definitely be one of those "it depends on the pilot" encounters.

2 cannons and 2 sidewinders.

When I was in Botswana we were putting chaff dispensers on their F-5s. At the same time there was a crew from CASA doing PDM on some of the aircraft.

 

[ARTESH]

Didn't one of them show pics of the cockpit and it looked plastic with a car tape deck/radio in the center of it? Or was that their "Stealth Fighter" that looked like it was manufactured by Hasbro?

Yes, and all of those shows and "circus" were for "fanatic" fans of regime! The people that don't know difference between their right and left hands, and can't even speak Persian, properly.

This topic remembered me of some older discussions in one of Iranian military forums... The site is still operational, but let's hope that those old posts be available as well.

 

[Ovod]

If you are going to include Helicopters then I would include two

The Huey and the Sea King, both of which were licenced to other countries and served more of less everywhere.

I would also include the Boeing Vertol C-47 Chinook in that list. I suspect the C-47 is the helicopter with the longest production run in the world - still in production today after more than 60 years!

F104 I wouldn't include. Yes it served in Nato but only very limited penetration elsewhere, I also don't believe it better than the opposition (in a military or commercial manner) and it also lacked reliability.

The F-104 sold reasonably enough all over the world, but I think the F-4 outsold it. The F-104 certainly had better sales than the EE Lightning or the SAAB Draken (or most of the other Century series of fighter aircraft).

I never heard of the F-104 being an unreliable aircraft, could you provide more details?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would also include the Boeing Vertol C-47 Chinook in that list. I suspect the C-47 is the helicopter with the longest production run in the world - still in production today after more than 60 years!

One could argue the Huey as well. It has the CH-47 beat by 5 years. Bell technically is still building them in the UH-1Y variant. That is technically a total of 66 years. It can be broken down as such though with the various variants:

Bell 204/205 (UH-1A to UH-1N): 1956-1987 (31 years)
Bell 212 (UH-1N): 1968-1998 (30 years)
Bell 412: 1981 to present (still in production) (41 years)
Bell UH-1Y: 2001 to present (still in production) (21 years)

As much as I love my Blackhawk, the Huey will still go down as the greatest rotary wing aircraft ever built.

Bell Begins Manufacturing UH-1Y For First International Operator

Commonality of H-1 Platforms Benefits Restart of the UH-1Y Helicopter Production Line

news.bellflight.com

 

[Ovod]

There were a number of different versions of both aircraft but taking the two main versions The Mig21bis and the F104G in most instances the Mig 21 had the advantage.

The power to weight ratio was better which would help give better acceleration. The wing loading was much lighter which helps with the agility. It should be noted that the difference in these figures was significant, not borderline.

Range was comparable and while the F104 I think had a slight edge in top speed neither of these was going to go far on the afterburner without running out of juice.

In theory the F104 could carry a decent payload in reality both tended to tote a couple of missiles and drop tanks, plus a gun

I would expect the Mig 21 to be able to operate from shorter runways which can help and was reckoned to be easier to handle

Many people underestimate the Mig 21. Often the biggest problem in combat was the training of the crews, not the performance of the aircraft.

I don't think any of these comparative facts between the F-104 and MiG-21 bear much resemblance to reality.

Are you sure about the MiG having a better thrust-to-weight ratio? I'm not.

I doubt very much if the F-104 needed a longer runway compared to the MiG-21, not when they are carrying a comparative payload.

The F-104 certainly had the better range and payload. The Starfighter could certainly carry more than a "couple of missiles" - have you any idea of the type of strike missions the F-104 G was tasked with? Clue, see picture below:

 

[Glider]

I don't think any of these comparative facts between the F-104 and MiG-21 bear much resemblance to reality.

Are you sure about the MiG having a better thrust-to-weight ratio? I'm not.

I doubt very much if the F-104 needed a longer runway compared to the MiG-21, not when they are carrying a comparative payload.

The F-104 certainly had the better range and payload. The Starfighter could certainly carry more than a "couple of missiles" - have you any idea of the type of strike missions the F-104 G was tasked with? Clue, see picture below:
View attachment 681572

Fair observations

Mig 21bis Empty Weight 11,770lb Max take off Weight 22,928lb Engine Power 9,030lb dry, 15,640ib afterburner = 0.66

F104G Empty Weight 14,000lb Max take off weight 29,027lb Engine Power 10,000ib dry, 15,600lb afterburner = 0.53

Wing Area
F104 196 Sq Ft = 148 lb/ft,
Mig 21 247 Sq Ft = 92 lb/ft

Which ever way you look at it, the Mig 21 has the better power to weight ratio and the much better wing loading

I cannot find comparable figures regarding range. F104 has a combat range of 420 miles and a ferry range of about 1,600 whereas the Mig 21 has an internal range of 751 miles, so I am not expecting the difference to be huge. As for take off, with a much lower wing loading and a better power to weight ratio I would expect the Mig to have a shorter take off distance.

Please take care with what I posted. Both the Mig21 and the F104 could carry more than a couple of missiles, but I stated that they normally they carried a couple of AAM's and drop tanks. It might be worth mentioning that the Mig 21 carried a semi active radar homing version of the Atoll, something the F104 couldn't until the F104S. It certainly wasn't the greatest missile, far from it, but if they had to go against B52's it was a real threat.

As for your photo of the F104 equipped for a nuke, how many nukes did Germany have?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As for your photo of the F104 equipped for a nuke, how many nukes did Germany have?

German aircraft are nuclear capable so that they may deploy US nuclear weapons in the event the Cold War turned hot.

 

[Jabberwocky]

One could argue the Huey as well. It has the CH-47 beat by 5 years. Bell technically is still building them in the UH-1Y variant. That is technically a total of 66 years.

As much as I love my Blackhawk, the Huey will still go down as the greatest rotary wing aircraft ever built.

I'd argue the Mi-8 deserves equal status to the Huey. Yes, it's a little younger, but it's still in production and just as prolific (if not more so). On a personal note, it also might be the loudest helicopter I've every had the displeasure of being near.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I'd argue the Mi-8 deserves equal status to the Huey. Yes, it's a little younger, but it's still in production and just as prolific (if not more so). On a personal note, it also might be the loudest helicopter I've every had the displeasure of being near.

I'm not quite sure it holds up in the quality department or is as iconic. Just my humble opinion.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'd argue the Mi-8 deserves equal status to the Huey. Yes, it's a little younger, but it's still in production and just as prolific (if not more so). On a personal note, it also might be the loudest helicopter I've every had the displeasure of being near.

Worked on Hueys, a little on Mi-8s. The Mi-8 is not a bad machine but it's a size up on the Huey. Quality and ease of maintenance, the Huey hands down! A better comparison is an SH-3 to a Mi-8