J.A.W.
Banned
Don't forget, the F4F - was flown by top-gun USN fighter jocks, who deployed the dreaded 'Thach Weave',
to negate the advantages of Johnny Nippon's hot-shot Zero..
to negate the advantages of Johnny Nippon's hot-shot Zero..
Was the Zero too good?
- Thread starter Conslaw
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
I have reflected deeply on this subject.
And I still class the Macchi as an Italian fighter. Even with a German engine.
And I still class the Macchi as an Italian fighter. Even with a German engine.
KiwiBiggles
Senior Airman
And I am sure all Americans consider the P-51 an American fighter.
J.A.W.
Banned
Does anyone know why the 109F had a moteur-cannon fitted by early `41,
but the Italian DB 601 & Nippon Kawasaki DB-analog powered aircraft - never did?
but the Italian DB 601 & Nippon Kawasaki DB-analog powered aircraft - never did?
All the "accepted" history of the Wildcat (and P-40) been worse than the Zero is true, but they were both of very similar performance and generation, and it came alot down to the pilot......unlike the Hellcat or P-38 which if flown within its best performance limits dominated any Zero.
I'd say the Zero improved more than the Wildcat during the war. The Zero A6M5 was probably better'er than an Wildcat FM-2, than a Zero A6M2 was over the Wildcat F4F-3?!?
I'd say the Zero improved more than the Wildcat during the war. The Zero A6M5 was probably better'er than an Wildcat FM-2, than a Zero A6M2 was over the Wildcat F4F-3?!?
J.A.W.
Banned
Sure was, after all a P-51D is an American fighter..
& still would be, even if it had a Ford-built Merlin slotted in, under the hood,
- no less than a Spit XVI is a British fighter - when Packard Merlin powered..
the 109F used differents model of DB 601
J.A.W.
Banned
The DB V12 series 601/603/605 were designed to accept such a fit, for single-engined fighter use,
so could it have been more of gun issue?
so could it have been more of gun issue?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Packard built Merlins, not Ford. Packard was it's own company in the 1940's and was later purchased by the Chrysler corporation in the 1950's.
And for the record, the Macci M.C202 was powered by an Alfa Romeo RC-41, which was manufacutered under license from Daimler-Benz. The Folgore's design was native to the Italians, that it had an engine designed from another source does not make it any less Italian.
Just like the original Bf109 was powered by a Rolls Royce Kestral. So was the first Ju87.
The Ju52 used a BMW132 radial engine - which was a licensed Pratt & Whitney R-1690 - which, by the way, was the genesis for the BMW801.
The Soviet TB-3 bomber was powered by the Mikulin M-17 V-12, which was a licensed BMW VI.
And while we're on the subject (supposedly) about Japanese aircraft, let's look at their engines:
Aichi Atsuta AE1A: DB601
Hitachi GK4: Hirth HM 504
Kawasaki Ha-40: DB601A
Mistubishi Kinsei Ha-33: Pratt & Whitney R-1690 (modified)
Nakajima Ha-1 Radial: Bristol Jupiter
And so on.
None of this has anything to do with the A6M or the discussion, to be honest...
J.A.W.
Banned
Ford sure did build Merlins.. & in bulk..
It was Ford UK, yes, but AFAIR, its always been owned by Detroit..
It was Ford UK, yes, but AFAIR, its always been owned by Detroit..
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
FWIW The Wildcat was still being used by the FAA over Norway as a fighter in 1945.
Shortround6
Major General
In both cases the "modifications" include turning a 9 cylinder engine into a 14 cylinder and while the BMW 801 used the same bore (or within a few tenths of a millimeter) they shortened the stroke by about 6mm. On the Kinsei the bore shrank by about 16mm and the stroke by about 12mm.
in the early variant of 601 that not worked, only from N variant the motorgun working ok, or better the engine worked ok
J.A.W.
Banned
From the design stage, the DB 601 was intended to be able to mount a cannon,
but it appears it had to wait for the new, more compact, MG 151/20 gun, so maybe
the foreign users of the DB analog engines - lacked an equivalent cannon - to fit?
but it appears it had to wait for the new, more compact, MG 151/20 gun, so maybe
the foreign users of the DB analog engines - lacked an equivalent cannon - to fit?
Hello The Basket, KiwiBiggles,
I am not disputing that the Macchi C.202 or C.205 or all the other late war Itialian fighters were not Italian designs. I am just of the opinion that they were not possible without German engine technology.
The big difference with the P-51 is that it was quite a viable fighter even when equipped with the Allison engines. It just didn't have the high altitude performance until it got the Merlin.
Hello Taly01,
The FM-2 may not have been a great increase in performance over the F4F-3 but it it should properly be compared to the F4F-4 or FM-1 from an equipment standpoint and from that view was significantly better in performance.
- Ivan.
KiwiBiggles
Senior Airman
And the MC.200 was "quite a viable fighter", before it got the DB601 and became the MC.202. I don't see how that's different to the P-51 story.
that was intended is not the same that the engine worked well with the motorgun, actually the first gun mounted in the DB-601N was the MG FF/M, in the 109 F-1.
J.A.W.
Banned
Dunno about that.. the obsolescent Hurricane, overseas workhorse of the RAF in the 1st 1/2 of the war,
could handle the radial-powered Italians ( though perhaps Hawker designer Sid Camm did have a close look
at the FIAT G50, since his Sea Fury bears a striking resemblance in profile, with that humped cockpit),
..while the advent of V12 power eclipsed the Hurricane & (along with the 109F/G) necessitated Spitfires.
J.A.W.
Banned
& that Oerlikon fitment proved unsatisfactory, as it had earlier when trialled by Heinkel, AFAIR..
( Off the thread topic, but gun related, does anyone know if engine-mount cannon were considered by
the Germans for their twin-engined nightfighters, which would allow more fuselage space for radar tech).
Hello KiwiBiggles,
I would have to agree with J.A.W. on this one. The Macchi C.200 was hardly a competitive fighter even in the desert war.
The Allison Powered P-51A was still the fastest version of the Mustang below 10,000 feet and could reach about 410 MPH so from a performance standpoint wasn't greatly different from a late war FW 190A-8. This was with a version of the Allison from 1943.
Keep in mind also that the Macchi C.202 wasn't directly descended from the C.200. There was an intermediate type without the hump back that I do not believe ever made it into production. That was the actual version that received the Daimler Benz engine swap.
I do think the Macchi C.202 is a very attractive aeroplane.
- Ivan.
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