Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
The Lysander might have been a damed good liaison aircraft, but it wasn't a war winner in any sense of the word. Is was a covert aircraft, not a combat aircraft.
There was spare capacity in the UK. Resources for the development and production of the Tarus for example an engine that wasted a lot of effort. Production could have been passed on to Bristol with little disruption.Then why were Ford and Packard needed, for extra production? R-R maintained they had no capacity available, and nobody has ever produced concrete evidence that they lied.
The engine didn't need any alterations to use 100 octane. It did need changes to make use of the extra potential offered by 100 octane and the use of 87 octane in fighter command wasn't a problem anyway as ALL RAF stations had 87 octane available as well as 100 octane.The need for improvements to the engine, to enable it to use 100 octane 100% of the time, was one of the reasons for the cancellation of the engine, which led to cancellation of the aircraft, not the other way round. R-R said to continue with the engine would have an impact on the Griffon; they were there, with a Ministry-appointed Local Technical Committee and Resident Technical Officer in situ, keeping careful watch, plus a Factory Overseer, usually a Wing Commander, appointed by the RAF, so any hint of them telling lies would have had serious repercussions, in a time of war.
The Griffon was originally planned for the Spitfire IV, in December 1939, and was undergoing flight trials, in a Henley, in 1940, so any delay would not have been well received. The first Griffon-powered Spitfire flew 27-11-41.
Westland had a design to increase the ammunition supply but were not allowed to proceed with it. Besides having the guns in the nose had a number of advantages, concentration of fire and increased range being the other. I notice that you didn't comment on my observation that the Whirlwind have a higher performance, that when the Luftwaffe arrived in the desert the Hurricane was outclassed and that the JAAF had a clear advantage over the Hurricane.Four cannon + 240 rounds against four cannon + 370 rounds is better armed?
And regretted it as it was too specialised. See attached letterIs that why they asked for three Squadrons of IID in the desert?
As mentioned before there were a number of designs that were continued with that would have provided the extra resources.Leave out the "made," and you've got it right; there was no extra capacity in Westland, so output could not be increased.
But they weren't (and it was up to the Air Ministry to cancel aircraft production, not the RAF,) so it wasn't, and using 20/20 hindsight is a pointless exercise.
Simply wrong. Fighter command were desperate to get the Whirlwind into combat during the BOB and the squadron leader refused as it hadn't reached the right level of reliability.Not to Fighter Command, they weren't; they were kept well out of the way, during the Battle, with their use only being planned in the event of an invasion.
lets pursue with Whirlwind even after we get a number of Typhoon/Tornado fighters, since those will replace the Hurricanes 1st? As far as bean counters - the aircraft are piloted by pilots. Putting a pilot in a lesser plane will not just have that pilot will more likely get killed, but it will not accomplish the mission.
The bean counters have had no problems ordering paying for US-produced fighters, that in 1940-41 did not have anything above the Whirly, bar the combat radius for the P-40.
Hindsight, again, and do you really believe that R-R would have acquiesced with a competitor being asked to build an engine they saw as useless?There was spare capacity in the UK. Resources for the development and production of the Tarus for example an engine that wasted a lot of effort. Production could have been passed on to Bristol with little disruption.
That flies in the face of what R-R said; do you have any evidence, whatsoever, that they lied?The engine didn't need any alterations to use 100 octane. It did need changes to make use of the extra potential offered by 100 octane and the use of 87 octane in fighter command wasn't a problem anyway as ALL RAF stations had 87 octane available as well as 100 octane.
Mainly because I fail to see how events of 1941/42 have any relevance to decisions taken in 1940; you can apply 2015 knowledge to criticise what was done/not done in 1940, but the authorities didn't have that sort of information, and I don't believe that they had access to soothsayers.I notice that you didn't comment on my observation that the Whirlwind have a higher performance, that when the Luftwaffe arrived in the desert the Hurricane was outclassed and that the JAAF had a clear advantage over the Hurricane.
I note that you omit to mention that the Hurricane IV had the "universal wing," which allowed it to carry the 40mm cannon as an extra option.And regretted it as it was too specialised. See attached letter
Yet again, you're relying on hindsight; decisions could not be made in 1940, against information yet to be discovered.As mentioned before there were a number of designs that were continued with that would have provided the extra resources.
Doesn't sound as if F.C. were desperate to get the aircraft into service (last two sentences, first paragraph):-Simply wrong. Fighter command were desperate to get the Whirlwind into combat during the BOB and the squadron leader refused as it hadn't reached the right level of reliability.
The 'Hawker fighter' was explicitly expected by Dowding, among others, to replace the Whirlwind. He only wanted to maintain Whirlwind production whilst it was the only cannon armed fighter the RAF had and at a time when he was expecting it to deal with German tanks on English beaches.
The MAP comparison was between the Whirlwind and a Spirfire, the latter being a much superior aircraft. This is an important point. At one time it was envisaged that Whirlwind production might start at Castle Bromwich. The idea was dropped when the detrimental effect on Spitfire production was realised.
Bean counters probably had far more influence on British aircraft production than their US counterparts given Britain's limited resources, even more so in 1940 when these decisions were being made. Ultimately it the resources were managed by Beaverbrook and the MAP, neither of whom shared your qualms about 'inferior' aircraft. They pushed on with the Halifax for example in the face of strident and continuous protests from Bomber Command.
Cheers
Steve
If Downding was really afraid that Whirly would be the only weapon to kill panzers in 1941, then why not ramp up the production, rather than kill it? Lysanders won't cut it here.
Fighter Command were not desperate to get the Whirlwind into the BoB. Edgar is quite correct that Dowding gave orders for them to be kept out of the way, based in the South West.
By the time the Hurricane was being deployed in the desert the Whirlwind was already a dead duck.
I happen to think that decisions to axe the Whirlwind (albeit with a limited reprieve, effectively to use up parts already produced) is precisely the type of bold decision that distinguishes British aircraft production from that of the Germans who allowed marginal or downright appalling projects to run on interminably at vast expense in resources.
Simply, the RAF did not need the Whirlwind. If anything can be said about the situation with the Hurricane in theatres outside the ETO, it is that it needed more Spitfires. The idea that the Whirlwind should be redesigned to use the same number of Merlin engines as TWO Spitfires was going to be a very difficult sell to the MAP.
Cheers
Steve
It is a game site but there are some good pictures of the Whirlwind here, including one 'altered' one to get Tomo excited.
Westland Whirlwind
Westland were told to go over to Spitfire production, not the Hurricane.I was referring at Hurricane as a lesser fighter aircraft (at one-to-one basis) than Whirlwind, not the Spitfire.
It was also a fabric-covered aircraft; how do you turn machinery (and a workforce) geared to a fabric-covered airframe, over to an all-metal item, with immediate effect? Fitting Whirlwind fuselages and wings into Lysander jigs couldn't be done, and, though I've never tried, I suspect sewing Alclad isn't easy.The Westland's own product, Lysander, was also a lesser aircraft than Whirlwind.
Yes, still stuck in the Stone Age, weren't we? And there we were, thinking that the Spitfire was fairly capable.Aircraft of Lysander's capability were also easier to produce in UK, or to buy abroad (USA, Commonwealth) than it was the case with aircraft of Whirlwind's capability.
Neither aircraft lived up to their sales pitch, especially as we weren't allowed to have certain essential P-38 components, and the spitfire IX was around by the end of 1942.UK was trying to buy Lightnings from the USA in 1940-41, those will run late vs. Whirlwind, while also being more expensive. I'm not sure that early P-39 was any bit less expensive than Whirly, and it was inferior to the Whirly before late 1942, at least, especially above 15000 ft.
Probably the reason for getting Westland to produce Spitfires and Seafires.Bean counters might have missed the fact that a trained pilot is at least as important asset of an airforce as the planes. A pilot in a better aircraft will do it's mission and return safely in the base more often than a pilot that has a lesser mount.
He wasn't, since the Hurricane IIC was already under way, together with cannon-armed Spitfires. It would be interesting to see how a Whirlwind would have managed to get in and out of small fields, while ferrying Army personnel, or picking up messages, or delivering dinghies to downed pilots, so maybe it's time to stop this silly obsession with the Lysander?If Downding was really afraid that Whirly would be the only weapon to kill panzers in 1941, then why not ramp up the production, rather than kill it? Lysanders won't cut it here.
It would be interesting to see how a Whirlwind would have managed to get in and out of small fields, while ferrying Army personnel, or picking up messages, or delivering dinghies to downed pilots, so maybe it's time to stop this silly obsession with the Lysander?
how do you turn machinery (and a workforce) geared to a fabric-covered airframe, over to an all-metal item, with immediate effect
Westland were told to go over to Spitfire production, not the Hurricane.
It was also a fabric-covered aircraft; how do you turn machinery (and a workforce) geared to a fabric-covered airframe, over to an all-metal item, with immediate effect? Fitting Whirlwind fuselages and wings into Lysander jigs couldn't be done, and, though I've never tried, I suspect sewing Alclad isn't easy.
Yes, still stuck in the Stone Age, weren't we? And there we were, thinking that the Spitfire was fairly capable.
Neither aircraft lived up to their sales pitch, especially as we weren't allowed to have certain essential P-38 components, and the spitfire IX was around by the end of 1942.
He wasn't, since the Hurricane IIC was already under way, together with cannon-armed Spitfires.
It would be interesting to see how a Whirlwind would have managed to get in and out of small fields, while ferrying Army personnel, or picking up messages, or delivering dinghies to downed pilots, so maybe it's time to stop this silly obsession with the Lysander?
Bean counters might have missed the fact that a trained pilot is at least as important asset of an airforce as the planes.
The 4-cannon fighter was the mantra of the RAF, the Beaufighter was one of such early aircraft, with other following suit as early as possible. Hopefully the LW bombers were prime targets, rather than panzers.
If Downding was really afraid that Whirly would be the only weapon to kill panzers in 1941, then why not ramp up the production,
...
The cannon armed fighter was just becoming the mantra of the RAF in 1940. In the 1930s it was the eight gun fighter, as both the Spitfire and Hurricane demonstrate. There was always an idea that cannon would be required, but it was not deemed practical for a variety of reasons in the mid 1930s.
He wrote that the Whirlwind might prove useful as a tank killer in 1940 not 1941. The invasion was initially expected in 1940. He wouldn't have asked for increased Whirlwind production because by 1941 and the next possible invasion (we know, but he didn't, that this was never a possibility) he expected the Hawker fighter with its cannon to be available.
Dowding's comments tacitly acknowledge the low level performance of the Whirlwind, though it was still an unreliable aeroplane unsuitable for the hurly-burly od service life. As a fighter it's altitude performance was simply not good enough. It's range was less than impressive too.
The Air Ministry/Ministry of Aircraft Production were right to axe an aircraft which was not a capable fighter at the ever increasing altitudes at which aerial combat was taking place, which was unreliable, which used more resources than its single engine counterparts
andand which the RAF, particularly Dowding, didn't want.
Dowding did not like Westland, the Lysander or the Whirlwind.
The bean counters certainly did not factor pilot/crew survivability into their calculations or the Halifax would have been axed in 1942/3.
Dowding's comments tacitly acknowledge the low level performance of the Whirlwind, though it was still an unreliable aeroplane unsuitable for the hurly-burly od service life. As a fighter it's altitude performance was simply not good enough. It's range was less than impressive too.
The Air Ministry/Ministry of Aircraft Production were right to axe an aircraft which was not a capable fighter at the ever increasing altitudes at which aerial combat was taking place, which was unreliable, which used more resources than its single engine counterparts and which the RAF, particularly Dowding, didn't want.