What did the P51s have over the German fighters?

[vinnye]

The P51D had very good visibility compared to the Bf109.

 

[drgondog]

The number one reason is that the P-51B and D performance envelope encompassed 20-30000 feet where the LW were forced to compete to attack US Strategic bombers - and within that envelope were superior in overall performance (except marginal climb and neutral turn vs 109 and basically everything vs 190A). The 190D at max engine performance was the equal of the P-51D, but less so against the P-51B at altitudes greater than 24000 feet.

Had the Spit XIV had the same range it really had an edge in every respect against the 109 (except very possibly top speed of 109K at max possible engine performance) - ditto the 190A and 190D.

 

[davparlr]

The number one reason is that the P-51B and D performance envelope encompassed 20-30000 feet where the LW were forced to compete to attack US Strategic bombers - and within that envelope were superior in overall performance (except marginal climb and neutral turn vs 109 and basically everything vs 190A). The 190D at max engine performance was the equal of the P-51D, but less so against the P-51B at altitudes greater than 24000 feet.

My data shows the P-51D (and the B) pulling 75" had more power than the Fw-190D-9 above 20k and was faster with a better rate of climb. Below 20k, the D-9 and the P-51B were well matched, swapping advantages as altitudes varied.

Another daunting aspect beyond speed and range and excellent high altitude performance of the P-51 (which made it an escort fighter par excellence) was the general capability over its entire operating envelope, sea level to ceiling. Save for a few limited German aircraft, the P-51 was faster at all altitudes, often significantly so. In addition, it also had good climb and maneuverability at all altitudes. For the critical times over Western Europe, end of '43 till wars end, the P-51 offered a lot tools for a pilot to use at all altitudes, and a particular problem for the Germans.

 

[billrunnels]

Notice the question mark, folks. This is a question. I'm not advocating anything. I'm aware of their range. Once they mixed it up with the German fighters, what did they have over them? I'm not hearing a real lot. Is it simply numbers and attrition that tell that story, or were the P51s that much better than the German fighters. And, if so, in what ways?

The P-51 pilots were more experienced and better trained near the end of the war.

 

[pbehn]

In combat height is important, the P51s appeared on German RADAR at circa 25,000 ft, it was up to the LW to climb up to the fight.

 

[grampi]

I think it's worth mentioning that comparing climb rates of the 51 to the 109 depend on what type of climb we're talking about. The 109 had a higher static climb rate than did the 51, but the 51 zoom climbed better, and zoom climb is what mattered most in combat situations...

 

[grampi]

Common sense would seem to suggest otherwise, at least in the case of the 190. There was a thread a while back discussing the degree to which a radial engine is more battle resistant than an inline, but I don't think anyone doubted that the radial was ultimately tougher. And the 190's airframe should have been at least as tough as the P-51's. Tank designed it that way.
The P51 had a reputation for being vulnerable to fire from below hitting the cooling system, though whether it was in fact more vulnerable than other liquid cooled fighters, or whether the reputation came about because then straffing duties it assumed later in the war more often placed it in harms way, I don't know. In either case, it's a problem the 190 wouldn't have had.

Unless we're including the Dora...

 

[dedalos]

Unless we're including the Dora...

Why? The Dora s Radiator had armor and was in front of the engine, a heavy hit there would have destroyed the engine anyway

 

[alejandro_]

Save for a few limited German aircraft, the P-51 was faster at all altitudes, often significantly so. In addition, it also had good climb and maneuverability at all altitudes.

When I look at the climb data (check topic on Bf 109 G-10/K-4) I get the impression that at high altitudes, the P-51 was comparable and even superior to the Bf 109. Is that fair to say?

 

[Milosh]

How many P-51Ds used the V1650-3 engine?

The RCAF received some so engined post war.
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/X003-2338-P-51D-D-Duck.pdf

 

[wuzak]

How many P-51Ds used the V1650-3 engine?

I wouldn't have thought any.

The P-51B/C moved from the -3 to the -7 to improve low/medium altitude performance.

 

[Dan Fahey]

One key factor not discussed! The G- Suite as a key advantage.
Speeds increased a lot during WW2 and more high speed turning.

The G-Suit allowed US pilots to hold a high speed turn better.
Reduced early Grey/Black out which also helped the P47 and P38 pilots as well.
In fact a key component dogfighting Mig15s in Korea