soaringtractor
Banned
- 33
- May 8, 2014
BUT.....Many of those 1940's aircraft were still around at the end of the war and doing a good service !!!! P38 p39 p40's, P47's older shitfires and Hurrycanes, Mk I & II Mustangs.........and others......
What fighter of 1939-40 could compete with fighters of 1944-45?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There was no P-38 (introduced 1941), P-39 (introduced 1941), P-47 (introduced 1942) or Mustang I (introduced 1942) around in 1940.
Icorps1970
Airman
- 18
- Dec 23, 2013
What you expect has little to do with what really happened. Someone sent him out there so he went.
Shortround6
Major General
To further this there were two squadrons of Mustang Is left in 1945, they were doing work but it was tactical reconnaissance, not air superiority or fighter bombing.
There were darn few 1940-41 fighters in service in late 1944 or 45 in the original 1940-41 form.
XF4U-1
compare to the 1945 F4U-4.
The British had a few Spitfire IIs flying around. Refitted with Merlin XX engines they were used by air sea rescue squadrons.
If the Germans had any 109Es left they were in training schools. A needed service but not quite what the question was asking????
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
To add to that, the A6M5 was still scoring victories against Allied types by 1944, but their victories were coming few and far between and the vast majority of the A6M types (including the A6M7) were relegated to "special attack" (kamikaze) missions in the final months of the war.
Staffel = squadron; iirc it was only a few F-0 or F-1 's that went into action in October '40, and then flown by a senior officer, perhaps Galland or Mölders?
the Luftwaffe Staffeln is not comparable with the RAF Squadron, same is true for the Gruppe, because a LW Staffeln is smaller of a RAF Squadron and the LW Gruppe is larger.
imho we only knew the name of the senior officers because this are famous not because they are the alone that fly the new F
Shortround6
Major General
And even at that the later A6M5s had a different engine than the A6M2s, much improved, heavier firepower and some protection being fitted.
So what is a 1939-40 fighter in 1944-45?
a fighter in it's 1939-40 configuration or a fighter that was first flown in 1939-40 but extensively modified by 1944-45?
What is a 1944-45 fighter?
A modified 1941-43 fighter or a brand new design flown in 1944-45?
If the later the US is down to the F8F for the Navy and P-80 for the Army (depends on how you classify the P-51H)
Token
Senior Airman
I don't disagree with your statement for the P-38 and P-39, those were the introductions to services dates. However, those dates would have probably been sped up if the US was actually in a war in 1940. Both aircraft were flying and beyond the experimental stage in 1940 (the XP-38 flew in Jan 1939, and the XP-39 flew in April 1938), both aircraft had early production samples in evaluation by 1940, for example the first YP-38 flew in Sep of 1940 (they were ordered in April 1939) and if I think the first YP-39 was the same month. Because the US was not yet in a fight the development of aircraft tended to be a bit more leisurely, at least until late 1940, when things started taking off. If the US had been on a war footing, as the other WW II combatants already were, it is not unreasonable to think these aircraft would have been 6 months or more ahead of the historical time line, which would probably have placed them in service in 1940. They were 1940 aircraft, but there just was not a push to have them in service in 1940.
Of course, the other end of that argument is that the early P-38 and P-39 had no business facing a late war aircraft. While both of those airframes eventually became good aircraft, the early models were not in the same league as late war aircraft. Sure, either a YP-38 (if armed, 39-692?) or an original P-38 could take down a Betty, but even in the hands of someone like Bong or McGuire it is doubtful either of those would have done well against an A6M5, let alone something like the Ki-84, if either of the Japanese aircraft were flown by a competent pilot.
T!
windhund116
Senior Airman
- 360
- Jul 3, 2017
Just outta curiosity. What late model IJAAF do you feel is better? The Ki-84 or the Ki-100?
Thanks!
drgondog
Major
XP-47 first flew 5-41; MkI Mustang 4-41, Mustang II 2-43,
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
That's sort of a tough call in some respects.
Using the A6M for example, the A6M5 does have a close lineage to the A6M2, but the A6M7 varied considerably.
Same with most other types (P-38, Bf109, Spitfire, F4U, Fw190, P-51, etc.).
In my earlier post about Lt. Nichizawa and his ability to successfully engage F6Fs by '44, I used the A6M5 as an example to a pilot's ability to use an out-classed type to their advantage even though the A6M5 was a newer type over the A6M2.
12 aircraft in a Staffel, also 12 in a RAF Squadron + 4 spares/ reserve aircraft (that is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong). Over the Channel in '41/ '42 Fighter Command was operating usually with 10-12 aircraft per squadron. The Gruppe compares pretty much in number of aircraft to a RAF wing of 3 squadrons in the early to mid-war period.
As to the 109F's, tbh I really don't know, but I think they were a rare bird in October 1940.
Afaik the pilot paper strength of RAF fighter squadron was 26, that of a Gruppe was 39
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Each Staffel within a Gruppe had 9 to 12 aircraft and each Schwarme within a Staffel had 4 to 6 aircraft.
Wrong. Quote your source, please.
The first example of a Friedrich first flew in July 1940, but it was an Emil converted, not a proper Friedrich - Wk Nr 5604, first flight as converted on 10 July 1940. 20 (one of my sources states 10) pre-production Bf 109F-0s began construction in October 1940, but these did not enter Luftwaffe frontline squadron service. The first F-1s off the production line took place in November 1940, and did not enter Luftwaffe service until March 1941, with JG 2 and JG 26. These were replaced by F-2s, which began rolling off the production line in February 1941.
Sources, Messerschmitt Bf 109 F-K Development, Testing, Production Willy Radinger and Wolfgang Otto (Schiffer, 1999), The Augsburg Eagle A Documentary History, Messerschmitt Bf 109, William Green (Janes, 1971), German Aircraft of the Second World War by J.R. Smith and Antony Kay (Putnam, 1972), Messerschmitt Bf 109 by Robert Grinsell (Bonanza, 1980)
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Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, & K Series bye Prien and Rodeike,
Radinger and Otto have not this info
However is relative common use modified old variant as prototype of a new variant. and is not rare that the production start before of prototype first flight
This is true Vincenzo, but in this example, your dates are incorrect by months. The Friedrich did not enter frontline squadron service with the Luftwaffe until February 1941 and production did not begin on the F-1 until November 1940, which is what you accused me of being false about. The F-0 began production in October but these saw squadron service evaluation, not frontline service and combat. At the time JG 26 received its first F-1s it was based in France.
From Radinger and Otto: Bf 109F-01 V21 D-IFKQ: CE+BN Wk Nr 6502. Bf 109F-02 V22 D-IRRQ: CE+BO Wk Nr 1800, Bf 109F-03 V23 CE+BP Wk Nr 5603, Bf 109F-04 V24 VK+AB Wk Nr 5604. These aircraft were the four Friedrich prototypes, but were built as Emils and had different components of the Fs incorporated into their structure. The first with the new wing was the V23 prototype, the two previous aircraft still had the Emil wing. Radinger and Otto quotes Wk Nr 5604 as flying on 16 June 1941 with Fritz Wendel at the controls (page 65), which is an obvious typo because it should be a year sooner, as opposed to 10 June 1940 as I quoted above from Smith and Kay (German Aircraft of the Second World War, Putnam).
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The date are not my, are from Prien and Rodeike.
actually at page 65 they write the 16th July 1941.
