What fighter of 1939-40 could compete with fighters of 1944-45?

windhund116 · Sep 14, 2020

Orzel said:
A early war spitfire would win against a very inexperienced me262 pilot because if the me262 pilot opened the throttle to much his engines would shatter due to lack of proper materials for jet engines in 1944/45.

Of course, the skill of the competing pilots (including knowledge of his mount) --- is at least 50% of the equation in battle. Axis power pilots were woefully under-trained, by 1945. Allied pilots had the advantage of 5-6 years of field combat experience embedded into their training, by 1945.

I remember reading about Dauntless pilots shooting down 1944 era Zeros, with their forward firing cowl guns --- over Okinawa.

nuuumannn · Sep 15, 2020

Vincenzo said:
actually at page 65 they write the 16th July 1941.

Yup, and I stated that it must be a mistake.

Wk Nr 5604 was an Emil converted as the fourth prototype Friedrich and incorporated the new empennage and a DB 601E engine in the new cowling, but didn't have the new wing. That was first fitted to its predecessor on the production line, the V23 Wk Nr 5603.

These conversions took place in 1940 - you yourself quoted that the first Friedrichs were produced in July 1940, I'm assuming you mean the prototypes. I would have to ask why it took a year before it had its first flight in that configuration, by which time the F-1s and F-2s are already in Luftwaffe frontline squadrons and have engaged in combat with the RAF.

Just looking through Radinger and Otto's book, it looks like the first F-1s were delivered to Stabe JG 26 and JG 51 in the winter of 1940, with other sources stating the first examples arrived on the frontline Channel coast squadrons in February 1941. What's interesting is that the photos show the pre-production F-0s fitted with Emil style square supercharger intakes.

Orzel · Sep 15, 2020

windhund116 said:
Of course, the skill of the competing pilots (including knowledge of his mount) --- is at least 50% of the equation in battle. Axis power pilots were woefully under-trained, by 1945. Allied pilots had the advantage of 5-6 years of field combat experience embedded into their training, by 1945.

I remember reading about Dauntless pilots shooting down 1944 era Zeros, with their forward firing cowl guns --- over Okinawa.

Yes.The German and Japanese pilots of 1944-45 were woefully undertrained and very little survived the war.They were shot down very quickly.They had to go into combat with less than 150 hours of flight time

pgf_666 · Sep 17, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
What's the worst single seat, single engined piston-powered fighter that entered service in 1944/45?

The CAC Boomerang was produced until Feb 1945. Would a Spitfire Mk.II be entirely outclassed?

The Bommer wasn't intended as a fighter, but ground support.And while it was operational as such in 1945, I've seen pix of Spit V's & Emils doing the same in 1944--doen't make them a 1944 fighter.

pgf_666 · Sep 17, 2020

Shortround6 said:
Not cases but crates

I'm told they did, BTW. Seems the top officer of the group, or whatever, had promised such in the even someone did it....I suspect he was anticipating sending them to a Spit or Kittyhawk Sq.

Oh, well, such is life. I'll have another...

pgf_666 · Sep 17, 2020

Stig1207 said:
Marseille overclaimed and his claims were particularly exaggerated the last month or so, he was not worse than many others in that regard, but not 'obviously lying'.

Also, germans awarded credits not for kills, as such, but for 'LuftSeigen', Aerial victories. If you prevented an aircraft from fullfilling its mission, you'd scored such. and while shooting it down in flames was a sure way to do so, The DLW would have given that Hurri driver one for causing the He-11(?) to dump its load, turn & run, at the end of the BoB.So....IF, in fact, the most infamous of his claims is reported acurately, that he made a firing pas at 3 hurris, and they turned from their target, by DLF standards, that's 3 Luftseigen, clean. So. DLF claims need tobe RE-reanalysed....

pgf_666 · Sep 17, 2020

PAT303 said:
So a 1940's aircraft could best a 1945 model as long as the 1945 plane is flown by a novice with no experience slowly at the right altitude and the 1940's model has an ace on board starting in a favorable position, nothing to it.

"It's not the crate, it's the pilot"
-- Rittmeister Manfred, Freiherr von richtoven

pgf_666 · Sep 17, 2020

Shortround6 said:
And even at that the later A6M5s had a different engine than the A6M2s, much improved, heavier firepower and some protection being fitted.

So what is a 1939-40 fighter in 1944-45?

a fighter in it's 1939-40 configuration or a fighter that was first flown in 1939-40 but extensively modified by 1944-45?

What is a 1944-45 fighter?

A modified 1941-43 fighter or a brand new design flown in 1944-45?

If the later the US is down to the F8F for the Navy and P-80 for the Army (depends on how you classify the P-51H)

Uh....can you say P-82?

Shortround6 · Sep 17, 2020

pgf_666 said:
Uh....can you say P-82?

Prototype flew in June of 1945, production examples might not have shown up until 1946, what with the post war drawdown of forces it didn't go operational until 1948.

But the point was that true (first squadron) fighters of 1944 and 1945 were a world apart from most updated (new engine and/or guns) older planes let alone an un updated plane.

Stig1207 · Sep 18, 2020

pgf_666 said:
Also, germans awarded credits not for kills, as such, but for 'LuftSeigen', Aerial victories. If you prevented an aircraft from fullfilling its mission, you'd scored such. and while shooting it down in flames was a sure way to do so, The DLW would have given that Hurri driver one for causing the He-11(?) to dump its load, turn & run, at the end of the BoB.So....IF, in fact, the most infamous of his claims is reported acurately, that he made a firing pas at 3 hurris, and they turned from their target, by DLF standards, that's 3 Luftseigen, clean. So. DLF claims need tobe RE-reanalysed....

What is your source for this and what is DLW or DLF?
German pilots were given credit for a victory if the enemy was shot down and if they had a witness. In many cases one wonders what the witness saw, but that applies across the board, Axis and Allies alike

GrauGeist · Sep 18, 2020

pgf_666 said:
Also, germans awarded credits not for kills, as such, but for 'LuftSeigen', Aerial victories. If you prevented an aircraft from fullfilling its mission, you'd scored such. and while shooting it down in flames was a sure way to do so, The DLW would have given that Hurri driver one for causing the He-11(?) to dump its load, turn & run, at the end of the BoB.So....IF, in fact, the most infamous of his claims is reported acurately, that he made a firing pas at 3 hurris, and they turned from their target, by DLF standards, that's 3 Luftseigen, clean. So. DLF claims need tobe RE-reanalysed....

Rubbish.

In the OKL directive 55270/41, issued in 1939, dictates that an aerial victory required the final destruction or explosion of the enemy aircraft or that the enemy pilot bales out (abandons) of their aircraft - there must be filmed proof (guncam) or verified by another airman or an observer on the ground.

What fighter of 1939-40 could compete with fighters of 1944-45?

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