What if: Fighter Command faced He100s instead of Bf109s

[Colin1]

The MG 151 doesn't show up in any quantity until the 109F models and not the first one.
The MG 131 doesn't show up until the 109 G-6?
or the 190A-7?

So the best we can turn out is a pair of 7.92s on the engine, the two existing wing-mounted 7.92s and I'd be looking for space for at least two more; if they can be mounted x4 shoulder to shoulder as in the Hurricane, I'm pretty sure a battery of x2 per wing is feasible in the He100.

Are you absolutely sure MG131s weren't available for the Battle of Britain?

 

[Shortround6]

So the best we can turn out is a pair of 7.92s on the engine, the two existing wing-mounted 7.92s and I'd be looking for space for at least two more; if they can be mounted x4 shoulder to shoulder as in the Hurricane, I'm pretty sure a battery of x2 per wing is feasible in the He100.

At what cost?
part of the 'smaller' fuselage of the He 100 was the elimination of cowl guns.
And while many people count the weight of guns as affecting performance I am beginning to wonder if drag doesn't have more to do with the loss of speed. how much drag for a gun barrel or for cartridge slots?
Weight would have more effect on climb.

Are you absolutely sure MG131s weren't available for the Battle of Britain?

Well, it sure doesn't show up on fighters until quite a while later. I have no idea if a few didn't show up on flexible mounts on test in 1940 but try to find a spec that shows an aircraft as being equipped as standard with them?

There is some evidence that an MG 151 (or two) showed up in Spain in 1938 for tests but the Luftwaffe didn't use them in any numbers until 1941.

 

[Colin1]

... while many people count the weight of guns as affecting performance I am beginning to wonder if drag doesn't have more to do with the loss of speed. how much drag for a gun barrel or for cartridge slots?

Weight would have more effect on climb

The P-51D had an extra gun port per wing over the P-51B, normal take-off weight difference was 300lbs and the D was between 3 and 5mph slower than the B - I'd imagine the difference being x2 .50cals plus ammo; gun port drag penalty or payload penalty?

I don't think the weight of x2 or even x4 additional 7.92mm mgs would weigh on the He100; one could argue that at last the Luftwaffe was entering the Battle of Britain with a fighter suitably armed for the task it was being asked to do.

 

[Freebird]

At what cost?
part of the 'smaller' fuselage of the He 100 was the elimination of cowl guns.
And while many people count the weight of guns as affecting performance I am beginning to wonder if drag doesn't have more to do with the loss of speed. how much drag for a gun barrel or for cartridge slots?
Weight would have more effect on climb.

Could they not have mounted 50 cals instead of the 303's?
Perhaps with a wing bulge similar to British aircraft?

 

[Milosh]

The P-51D had an extra gun port per wing over the P-51B, normal take-off weight difference was 300lbs and the D was between 3 and 5mph slower than the B - I'd imagine the difference being x2 .50cals plus ammo; gun port drag penalty or payload penalty?

I don't think the weight of x2 or even x4 additional 7.92mm mgs would weigh on the He100; one could argue that at last the Luftwaffe was entering the Battle of Britain with a fighter suitably armed for the task it was being asked to do.

It is my understanding that the speed difference between the P-51B/C and P-51D was caused by the drag created by the bubble canopy.

 

[parsifal]

Someone has already said this, but the BoB was not lost because of the inferior performance of the Me109, or any other aircraft. In fact the Me 109 did quite well against the RAF fighters.

The BoB was lost because of Tactica errors by the Luftwaffe, very superior tactical handling by Dowding in particular, and because the whole structure and procurement of the Luftwaffe was not geared to the sort of operations it found itself faced with in the Summer of 1940. It was not the result of a lack of cannon or range in its fighter aircraft....these were small change compared to the real issues and problemsd that beset the LW in that campaign

 

[The Basket]

The He-100 would have been built in so few numbers that it could have played little part anyway.

The Germans had the Bf 109E and drop tanks added...job sorted.

That aircraft would have had the range and the goods.

 

[Colin1]

The He-100 would have been built in so few numbers that it could have played little part anyway.

The Germans had the Bf 109E and drop tanks added...job sorted

The what-if is based on the supposition of a Jadgwaffe comprised entirely of He100s, or at least predominantly

 

[The Basket]

The He-100 would have built in so few numbers as to make the BoB impossible then.

The first prototype flight and the operational service in huge numbers isn't happenng in 1940.

 

[Shortround6]

The P-51D had an extra gun port per wing over the P-51B, normal take-off weight difference was 300lbs and the D was between 3 and 5mph slower than the B - I'd imagine the difference being x2 .50cals plus ammo; gun port drag penalty or payload penalty?

I don't know, I might be off n a wild goose chase. In "America's Hundred Thousand" there is a chart/table? showing what adding 1000lbs to a Mustang (while staying 'clean') does to various aspects of it's performance.
The difference in speed is only a few mph. Yet looking at a few other planes, like early P-40s shows a rather larger decline in speed being attributed to a smaller increase in weight due to armor and self sealing tanks which should not impact drag at all (except for increased wing incidence) plus the weight of the 2 or 4 .30 cal guns in the wing with little or no mention of the extra drag added by the new wing guns. Perhaps I am over impressed by the fact that the bullet proof wind screen on the Spitfire was worth about 6mph of the top speed. Certainly not due to weight

I don't think the weight of x2 or even x4 additional 7.92mm mgs would weigh on the He100; one could argue that at last the Luftwaffe was entering the Battle of Britain with a fighter suitably armed for the task it was being asked to do.

The 20mm MG/FF was a particularity light weight cannon, weighing roughly twice what a MG 17 did. While swapping a single 20mm for a pair of MG 17s isn't going to do anything weight wise trying to go to 6 or 8 MG 17s is going to run up the weight. While 20mm ammo is fairly heavy trying to provide ammo to multiple RCMGs can run up the weight also. RCMG ammo being roughly 6lb per hundred. Or 120lbs for 4 guns at 500 rpg.
And you have the gun mounts, heaters, firing controls, charging systems and ammo boxes, etc that can run the installed weight up 30% or more over the weight of the bare guns.

The He 100 would still have kept a performance advantage, just not as much as first glance.

 

[Just Schmidt]

So when did either enter frontline service?

The hurricane late 37, the spitfire late 38.

 

[Colin1]

The hurricane late 37, the spitfire late 38.

Errr yeah

We were discussing the MGs 131 and 151

 

[fastmongrel]

As I see it the problem for the Luftwaffe is not types of aircraft or range or armament but numbers. Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce had vastly bigger air fleets but still took 4 years to grind down the German production and transport system.

Reading njacos excellent daily reports of the battle and what catches my eye is the numbers of bombers the Luftwaffe was sending on raids. In July raids of 40 bombers seems to be a big raid. I know numbers of bombers grew as the battle progressed but the Luftwaffe never had the resources to mount and sustain the raids required to win the battle.

The stated aim of the battle was to smash the RAF and the RN and while No 11 group was on the ropes for a while the Luftwaffe never came close to wiping out the RAF as a whole. As for the RN hiding in Scapa Flow waiting to drop the hammer on the German invasion fleet the Luftwaffe barely managed to scratch it.

My 2 pence the only way for Germany to succesfully crush Britain is to concentrate every resource available on the commerce war. 300 U-boats on station in the Atlantic by August 1940 and it is all over for Britain by August 1941. Unfortunately for Germany this means no Barbarossa for several years which means Uncle Joe has the time to build lots more T34s.

 

[Timppa]

He-100 is one of the more overhyped Luftwaffe aircraft.
I have not seen seen any reliable (=tested) performance figures. I doubt if they even exist, at least for practical fighter aircraft. By practical I mean with conventional radiator, pilot armor, self-sealing tanks, guns with ammunition, etc.

The Russians bought He-100 prototypes and they felt cheated afterwards:

" Nevertheless, mistakes were made. The first was the heightened attention paid to the He 100 airplane that Germany passed off as a series-produced fighter superior in speed to the Me 109- The Russians swallowed the bait and ordered 10 He 100s in Germany, more than any other type. But, in reality, because the evaporative cooling system was not developed properly and an aircraft with wing surface radiators was highly vulnerable in combat, not to mention a series of other technological and operational deficiencies, the He 100 never entered operational service. It was designed as a racing airplane and remained such, despite the two machine-guns it carried. The following was noted in the conclusion of an Air Forces Scientific Research Institute report written when He 100 testing in the USSR concluded: "The airplane is not developed to the requisite level for combat duties".

Heinkel He-100 for the USSR

 

[davparlr]

I don't know, I might be off n a wild goose chase. In "America's Hundred Thousand" there is a chart/table? showing what adding 1000lbs to a Mustang (while staying 'clean') does to various aspects of it's performance.

You are correct. Induced drag, drag caused by lift, becomes less and less a factor as airspeed increases. North American charts on the P-51D shows that, at top speed, the difference in speed of an 8000 lb P-51 compared to a 10000 lb P-51 is only 5 mph. This is a 25% increase in weight with only about a 1% impact to airspeed. I am sure this is calculated impact, not flight test.

 

[timshatz]

Present day Cuba or Cuba at the time of BoB?

Oh Cuba at the time of the BOB, much more fun. There is only so much of a socialist paradise that I can stand. Matter of fact, there isn't any of a socialist paradise that I can stand. Too much "Workers of the World Unite" and not enough "Let's have a good time!".