Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
The creation of a cadre of forces was an essential building block and it is silly to pretend otherwise...
...Or are you saying that Russia allowing the training of the core elements of the new German forces was ok, but we should have declared war as soon as they went back to Germany? That would be remarkably one-eyed if that's what you do mean?
...Also, it was not directly in this thread, but a comment was made in an exchange between stasoid and michaelmaltby which reminded me of another thread on this subject that students in Russia are being taught how Britain and France were entirely to blame for the rise of Nazi Germany and the outbreak of WW2 and I was referring to this. Lastly, that the M-R pact was the greenlight for the invasion of Poland that finally lit the blue touchpaper of war in Europe is indisputable, IMO these were Russias contributions, I do not pretend that the other major European powers did not also blunder badly.
... the M-R pact was the greenlight for the invasion of Poland that finally lit the blue touchpaper of war in Europe is indisputable, IMO these were Russian contributions, I do not pretend that the other major European powers did not also blunder badly.
:... in 1938 there were many in Britain who (rightly) feared communism and might ( I repeat "might") have been able to live with a fascism-tolerant government as the price of a war to stop communism. Hope you don't think I'm exaggerating or fear-mongering on this - but if you do - think US relations with Spain and Portugal 1945-55.
Who then went on to become the commanders and trainers of the resultant forces, plus the prototypes that were secretly flown and tested in the USSR allowing the German industry to perfect its skills with modern design techniques and materials. You cannot simply dismiss this starting point, from little acorns mighty oaks do grow.
The USSR was the only nation to sanction this clandestine activity. How is this episode treated by those who are rewriting history to blame Britain and France for the start of WW2?
There is only one country that is to blame, and that is Germany. Nobody made Germany start a war except the Nazi leaders.
No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that training of core elements of new German forces in USSR would count for nothing if build-up of German war machine was not allowed by victors of the Great war, France and Britain. They had the means to stop it but they didn't.
it would be wrong to say that France and Britain didn't contributed to the rise of Nazi Germany
Gosh, imalko, let's just try and imagine why a thinking person living in a democracy might be afraid of communism in the late 1930's...
But - I guess - if you're a believer, communism replaces all religious values and the well-being of the proletariat replaces "morality" and ethics - and class consciousness replaces "soul".
All fine I guess but the Nazis had "padres" - the way the Soviets had commissars. Less menacing to Christian Europe - the padres, I mean.
Now you or others - no doubt - will tell me that the same list could be applied to Nazis Germany and Hitler and - for the most partyou'd be right.
You make "fear of communism" sound like paranoia ...
this thread sure got stranded off topic
I may be being incredibly dense here but was this agreement (from 1926-33, thanks stasoid) ALSO not in direct contravention of the Versailles treaty, or at least the spirit of it? You could argue, successfully that Russia was not a party to that agreement, but if Russia did not want Germany to rearm, why do it?
The work that was done in Russia in these years was in total secrecy. How were Britain and France responsible for failing to police this action? Like I said, once this was all revealed in 1935 what exactly were GB and France supposed to do? The resurgent German armed forces were presented as a fait accompli.
It was already too late. I don't see how 'country A' can facilitate the secret rearmament of 'country Z' but can then blame 'countries B and F' for not stopping it? Where's the logic?
"... Regarding the Czech position, I know next to nothing other the barest facts of history, so, genuine question here, if they were caopable of repelling the Germans in 1938, why didn't they when the Sudetenland was annexed?"
Very good question.
Possible answers:
- lack of political will. The "country" was not really a country but a creature of Versailles-League of Nations. Once the Iron Curtain came down the country harmoniously dissolved itself into 2 independent republics. Understanding themselves that they were two peoples - not a nation.
- prosperity. Belief in some quarters of the country that they would be economically better-served in Germany-centric Europe than outside.
-differing values-aspirations between Czech and Slovak populations
This should be a good one to get feedback on.
Of course you're right imalko. Completely right. But lets remember that there was a long history of Jewish persecution in Christian Europe? True? Lets also remember that many, many prominent Jews were Communists. Also true?
I am not trying to draw you into a religious/political debate (said the fox) and I am enlightened by details of personal experience - such as yours. I will say that Tito was NOT Stalin though and I'm sure you will agree with me.
Sorry if you think the thread has gone awry. Unlike most "what-ifs" which speculate on airplanes that never existed, or time lines than never coincided - this thread has run with the political possibilities that were up for grabs. And I haven't read a post in this thread so far that has been silly or superficial. At the same time the thread is dancing along the line of Moderator censorship - which IMHO would be a shame.