What if: Hitler didn't attacked Russia?

[imalko]

Tell me frankly now imalko, and this is a serious question: in your opinion who produces the better hockey players, Czechs or Slovaks , (now that's "awry" )

Frankly? Slovaks of course (but I might be little biased about that).

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... Frankly? Slovaks of course (but I might be little biased about that). "

I feel the same way - especially watching the recent Olympics. In the old days the Czechoslovakian national team played with the same kind of discipline that the USSR did - but more soul. But it was hard to see where the talent and the "system" separated. But now that they are two nations - and the effects of the system have worn off, I sense that the Slovak men and women are more into the game than the Czechs. Is that maybe where being "a more rural country" comes into the picture
It certainly has been true in Canada - soldiers and hockey players predominantly come from small towns/rural Canada.

This has been a fun thread - don't know how much further it can go - unless you want to discuss "How 1938 looks a lot like 2010".

Chairs,

MM

 

[Waynos]

Imalko and Michaelmaltby, you might find this quote I found today from my local newspaper to be of interest. It is from a speech given at Sheffield Capital Steelworks by Arthur Balfour

"Will the Germans go to war again? I don't think there is any doubt about it, and the
curious thing about it is that I am almost persuaded that some day we shall have to let
the Germans arm or we shall have to arm them. With the Russians armed to the teeth,
and the tremendous menace in the East, Germany unarmed in the middle is always going
to be a plum waiting for the Russians to take. One of the greatest menaces to peace in
Europe to-day is the totally unarmed condition of Germany". (Sheffield Daily
Telegraph, October 24, 1933)

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... Germany unarmed in the middle is always going to be a plum waiting for the Russians to take."

Waynos that is a great post - most ironic - but you have to wonder if Balfour wasn't a little bit slow getting his "intelligence".
By Oct 24, 1933 Hiitler is ready to ascend and the re-building has been going on clandestinely for years and years.

Thanks for that.

MM

 

[imalko]

I suspect that gentlemen who gave that speech never dreamed of possibility that Germany could turned her arms against the west first! Fear of communism causing tragical error in judgment. This is good example of what I was talking about few posts back. And the speech is dated October 1933 when Hitler was already in power. Interesting...

 

[Waynos]

you have to wonder if Balfour wasn't a little bit slow getting his "intelligence".
By Oct 24, 1933 Hiitler is ready to ascend and the re-building has been going on clandestinely for years and years.

This goes back to the discussion imalko and I were having about rearmament and were we possibly ended up talking at cross purposes. It seems scarcely credible these days but, until 1934 at the earliest the Allies were completely unaware of Germany's military rebirth. This was my argument earlier and why the 1926-33 Russian arrangement was much more important than mere numbers can convey. When we were aware, many refused even to believe it and when we did, it was too late anyway. This shows however that we had no real desire to stop them even if we did know, which I believe was imalko's point and was also correct.

I suspect that gentlemen who gave that speech never dreamed of possibility that Germany could turned her arms against the west first! Fear of communism causing tragical error in judgment. This is good example of what I was talking about few posts back. And the speech is dated October 1933 when Hitler was already in power. Interesting...

To understand where this grave misjudgement originated from it is also useful to look at Hitlers own ramblings in Mein Kampf. In there 'England' (Hitlers mistake not mine) was not the enemy and Germany's error in the past had been in trying to compete with England. The future lay in coming to an understanding with the English that theor power and empire were not under threat from Germany and that English agreement should be obtained for Germany to expand its borders eastwards, within Europe, into Russia.

With many people in power at the time this duality of purpose of posing no threat to us AND ambitions against the communist state was just fine and dandy. The Nazis were as good as 'on our side'. Churchill was almost a lone voice of warning of the dangers of an armed Germany with Hitler in control of it.

When reality sank in during 1935/36 it is easy for people to say we should have taken measures to stop the Germans, but that is to ignore the absolutely pathetic state of the British military at that time thanks to the disastrous 'Ten Year Rule'.

 

[Waynos]

oops, it worked the first time

 

[michaelmaltby]

Waynos and Imalko - agreed. But I think society in the '30s was as ill-informed about the dangers of communism as nazism.

MM

 

[parsifal]

shouldnt we try to steer back to the original thread topic?

 

[Waynos]

Quick everyone, hide, its the thread police ('tis merely a jest)


I think the last few posts are quite pertinent to the original premise parsifal, even if the elastic is now stretched to breaking point, in that we have explored the relationship between Russia, Germany and the other allies during this time. I don't think a question such as posed in the thread title can exist in a vacuum.

From what has emerged I don't think there was ever any possibility of the situation posed in the title ever arising. It would have made more sense, possibly, for Hitler to capitalise on the 'phoney war' and just ignore France and GB instead.

Of course he was intent on revenge against France for Versailles, so this is an equally remote possibility I suppose.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... From what has emerged I don't think there was ever any possibility of the situation posed in the title ever arising... "

Amen to that.

Short of just ignoring the original post, I think we have given the topic a thorough work-out (except maybe the meander on Czech-Slovak hockey which I introduced ).

Parsifal - since you are being a purist on this subject (as Colin1 tried to be at the outset) why not explain how you think Hitler could have avoided war with Stalin and communism - given the climate in Europe post 1918 of course .

MM

 

[parsifal]

Simple answer....I dont think it was avaoidable. hitler had made plain his intentions concerning the Russians since mein Kampf. Defeat of Soviet Russia was so embedded into the Nazi creed as to make it inevitable that war would break out sooner or later

 

[michaelmaltby]

Agreed.

MM