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Things happen in discussions that dont happen in real life. Ike didnt ask "do we have air superiority" the day before D-Day in order to decide whether to go ahead. There had been massive efforts of all sorts from the combined bomber offensive to the fortitude deception plans to ensure air and ground "tank" superiority. Ike was as sure as anyone could be that he had the assets to maintain air superiority over the beach head, that is the LW would not be able to substantially interfere with the landing. Since the second Colossus code breaking machine came on line just before and Ike had the ull German order of battle, plus confirmation that Hitler was swallowing the deception of D-Day being a diversion. I dont think Eisenhower could have been more certain that he would have air superiority, his biggest worry was the weather.Overlord would not be launched, absent Allied air superiority. And to paraphrase what others have noted, call Tom Cruise because playing catch-up in one or two days was Mission Impossible.
Where have you been, everyone knows that, dont they?Jeezus................ I never knew the Luftwaffe coulda won D-Day!
I'll have to spread the word. Weren't we lucky.
I am not a sceptic, I am just amazed it didnt happen, such a simple, elegant solution.One interesting whatif is if the Me 262 was developed as a bomber and developed much faster because the Jumo 004A was put into production at the cost of reducing U-boat production. Had these bombers been equipped with the Bombentorpedo Information on German Bomben Torpedos, they could have dropped their bombs at fairly high speeds with a reasonable chance of damaging ships.
I suspect that Hitler was thinking of this scenario when asking that the Me 262 should be developed as a bomber but didn't get the details across to his subordinates.
Now I leave it to all you sceptics to work out how many bombers would be needed to have an effect, how hard it would be to train the pilots and whether their airfields might have been attacked to blunt the weapon. I would add that the Arado 234 would have made the last less effective as it had a longer range.
Me262s were also held up by development problems with the jet engines. I don't think there was a path to clouds of Me262s on D-Day.One interesting whatif is if the Me 262 was developed as a bomber and developed much faster because the Jumo 004A was put into production at the cost of reducing U-boat production. Had these bombers been equipped with the Bombentorpedo Information on German Bomben Torpedos, they could have dropped their bombs at fairly high speeds with a reasonable chance of damaging ships.
I suspect that Hitler was thinking of this scenario when asking that the Me 262 should be developed as a bomber but didn't get the details across to his subordinates.
Now I leave it to all you sceptics to work out how many bombers would be needed to have an effect, how hard it would be to train the pilots and whether their airfields might have been attacked to blunt the weapon. I would add that the Arado 234 would have made the last less effective as it had a longer range.
One interesting whatif is if the Me 262 was developed as a bomber and developed much faster because the Jumo 004A was put into production at the cost of reducing U-boat production. Had these bombers been equipped with the Bombentorpedo Information on German Bomben Torpedos, they could have dropped their bombs at fairly high speeds with a reasonable chance of damaging ships.
I suspect that Hitler was thinking of this scenario when asking that the Me 262 should be developed as a bomber but didn't get the details across to his subordinates.
Now I leave it to all you sceptics to work out how many bombers would be needed to have an effect, how hard it would be to train the pilots and whether their airfields might have been attacked to blunt the weapon. I would add that the Arado 234 would have made the last less effective as it had a longer range.
Negotiated Peace with West?How would it affect the outcome? I know there is no way to perfectly gauge the destruction.
By late 1943 into 1944 facts ceased to be important, it was what Hitler believed that mattered. Steinbock was Hitler's idea as retaliation for the allied combined bomber offensive which was starting to take effect in late 1943. Its hard to say what effect 500 twin engined bombers could have had at D-Day, certainly more effect than Steinbock which did nothing. On 6th June with a full moon there is no actual black dark night, by moonlight you can recognise the coastline and ships at sea, the allies were able to find the "Pegasus bridge" in the "dark". There was no doubt in anyones minds that a landing would be made, the question was where and when, so any recon over UK would have confirmed what the allies had convinced Hitler, there waould be a landing in the Pas de Calais, with a diversionary landing in Normandy. Just prior to D-Day German weather reports said no landing would be possible for 2 weeks because o storms. Allied weather forecasts spotted a "window" just long enough for the landings to go ahead. When D-Day took place, much of the German high command were absent, because they believed no landing anywhere was possible, Rommel was in Germany with his wife for her birthday. However Hitler had been convinced that Normandy was a diversion and so he wouldnt release reserves to counter the landing at Normandy. Allied superiority in weather forecasting and espionage/intelligence was more significant than actual numbers of planes and tanks. Incredibly "Garbo" a double agent working for the allies was awarded the Iron Cross second class for his efforts on 29 July 1944 everything he told the Germans was either BS or true but too late to be any use. He was awarded an MBE by king George VI on 25 November. Juan Pujol García - WikipediaOf course the force of two engined bombers (and crews) that was expended in Operation Steinbock could not survived if they had tried to attack the invasion fleet by day. However, attacks at night might have at least caused some confusion had the crews undergone some training and had the bombers been equipped with radar (June 6th 1944 was a full moon but the weather was close to stormy) and had some technique been developed for using flares.
"But how could they know that an invasion was imminent or that it was aimed at Normandy?", I hear someone ask. Well back to the Me 262. Only a dozen Me 262s flying over the South Coast of Britain every day would be enough to roll back the curtain concealing Allied plans.
Something with oak leaves, diamonds, and crossed cricket bats?What else could I award?
I decided to come back to this after reading pbehn's informative comments on Operation Steinbock above. What this shows is that the Luftwaffe was fighting its own war without giving any thought to the overall situation. Very little thought would have told them that a successful Allied invasion of France would lead to Germany's defeat but the Luftwaffe did not make any serious plan to oppose such an invasion.
Of course the force of two engined bombers (and crews) that was expended in Operation Steinbock could not survived if they had tried to attack the invasion fleet by day. However, attacks at night might have at least caused some confusion had the crews undergone some training and had the bombers been equipped with radar (June 6th 1944 was a full moon but the weather was close to stormy) and had some technique been developed for using flares.
First off - beware of anything that note Wikipedia as one of its sources. Wikipedia - particularly on the subject of the Second World War and German technology is incredibly unreliable - infested with everything from those believing the old wives tails to full-on Robert Arndt level S-Tier Wehraboos.I decided to come back to this after reading pbehn's informative comments on Operation Steinbock above. What this shows is that the Luftwaffe was fighting its own war without giving any thought to the overall situation. Very little thought would have told them that a successful Allied invasion of France would lead to Germany's defeat but the Luftwaffe did not make any serious plan to oppose such an invasion.
Of course the force of two engined bombers (and crews) that was expended in Operation Steinbock could not survived if they had tried to attack the invasion fleet by day. However, attacks at night might have at least caused some confusion had the crews undergone some training and had the bombers been equipped with radar (June 6th 1944 was a full moon but the weather was close to stormy) and had some technique been developed for using flares.
"But how could they know that an invasion was imminent or that it was aimed at Normandy?", I hear someone ask. Well back to the Me 262. Only a dozen Me 262s flying over the South Coast of Britain every day would be enough to roll back the curtain concealing Allied plans.
So we return to asking when the 262 could have been put into production. My guess is that production could have started very early in 1943, squadrons could have started training in Autumn 1943 and several hundred aircraft might have been available by June 1944. The Me 262 was aerodynamically ready by early 1943 and the aircraft tested by Galland in May 1943 was very similar to an early production 262 apart from the engines.
Which brings us to the engines. According to Luftwaffe Resource Center - German Luftwaffe (Air Force) from 1935-1945 - A Warbirds Resource Group Site "By Summer 1943, the Jumo 004A engine had passed several 100-hour tests, with a time between overhauls of 50 hours being achieved." The article goes on to say "However, the Jumo 004A engine proved unsuitable for full-scale production because of its considerable weight and its high utilization of strategic material (Ni, Co, Mo), which were in short supply." Now it is certainly true that cobalt was unavailable after Operation Torch. However, chromium was being imported from Turkey and nickel from Finland up to Summer 1944. Germany's molybdenum was produced at the Knaben mine in Norway and production was disrupted by air attacks in March and November 1943 but the Jumo 004A contained little molybdenum which was a critical component of armour for tanks. The Jumo 004A may have been heavier than the 004B but it was more powerful as it spun faster and its weight did not greatly reduce the performance of prototypes. It does seem likely to me that a Jumo 004A after a slight redesign to remove cobalt could have been produced from June 1943 to June 1944 in fairly large numbers without straining Germany's resources.
There is some very weak support for this in "Engines of Desperation: Jet Engines, Production and New Weapons in the Third Reich" by Hermione Giffard, Journal of Contemporary History 48(4) 821-844, 2013 which has "In the case of the jet engine, lower quality (made worse by shoddy construction work) was accepted, even recommended - as a way to ease production regardless of the known and dangerous consequences of doing so." Unfortunately, I don't know if the author meant the 004A to 004B decision or the transition from piston engines to jets and I haven't yet worked out how to get her thesis. She references Schabel's Die Illusion der Wunderwaffen but my German is poor and the parts at Die Illusion der Wunderwaffen seem to mostly say the same as Walter J. Boyne's article "Goering's Big Bungle" at Goering's Big Bungle | Air & Space Forces Magazine.
If we want to know how quickly an efficient organization can bring an aircraft into production, we can look at the Wikipedia article on a nearly exact contemporary of the Me 262:
The Cyclone-powered XF6F-1 (02981) first flew on 26 June 1942, followed by the first Double Wasp-equipped aircraft, the XF6F-3 (02982), which first flew on 30 July 1942. The first production F6F-3, powered by an R-2800-10, flew on 3 October 1942, with the type reaching operational readiness with VF-9 on USS Essex in February 1943.
Luftwaffe still needs to defeat the combination of P-47 + Spitfire + Tempest + P-38 fighters in the 1st half of 1944.The simplest path to this scenario is the P-51 is never re-engined with the Merlin. This eliminates the path to Allied air superiority.
Good as the Merlin powered Mustang was, hard to see it as THE decisive factor for air superiority during the Normandy landings.Luftwaffe still needs to defeat the combination of P-47 + Spitfire + Tempest + P-38 fighters in the 1st half of 1944.
P-51s with then-current V-1710 will still give a good run for their money to the Luftwaffe, too.
For want of a nail.Good as the Merlin powered Mustang was, hard to see it as THE decisive factor for air superiority during the Normandy landings.
Can they resume the LR bombing campaign as far as the P-47 escort allows it, like trying to bomb the Ruhr in the stone age for starters?Without the Mustang AAF doesn't resume the long range bombing campaign and the Luftwaffe is able to avoid the losses that come with Big Week. No disrespect to the P-38, but it doesn't provide the success of the P-51b.
The simplest path to this scenario is the P-51 is never re-engined with the Merlin. This eliminates the path to Allied air superiority.
Without air superiority, I believe the invasion of France looks like this:
1) The original Overlord plan takes shape with Operations Neptune and Dragoon planned as simultaneous landings.
2) Recognizing that air superiority is not guaranteed, Operation Dragoon proceeds ahead of Neptune as there is less resistance in Southern France.
3) Dragoon is a success, albeit more costly than actually occurred.
4) Allies base air forces in France and achieve control of air.
5) Neptune happens in the fall.