What Mark Spitfire is this?

[SaparotRob]

Back in the early 60's a guy came up with what he thought was a great idea. The airlines were introducing jet aircraft but there were no civilian jet trainers. So he went around and collected parts for Lockheed T-33A's until he was able to build one. Trouble was, it did not exist, had no serial number, and Lockheed refused to issue a new one. But then the USAF sold a wrecked T-33 and sold it not as scrap metal but as an airplane. He bought that one and transferred the serial number to his.

In the 80's someone duplicated that experience with a T-38; it appeared in a "Top Gun" Pepsi commercial. He said that by the time he had enough parts to build one he actually had collected enough to build two.

Why am I reminded of a Johnny Cash song?

 

[SaparotRob]

In the 1990s. a successful newly-semi-retired Boise-area landscaping contractor, "Sterling", were in the process of restorin a Mitsubishi Zero in the fashion described above. He and his wife/business partner gave a nice presentation about the project at a business gathering I attended.
The plane was part of a squadron based in the Marshall Islands (not sure which) There were about a half dozen aircraft hulks residing in the trees at the remnants of their airfield. Seems it was a base that was bypassed by the Allies as they advanced toward Japan. Isolated and cutoff from all supplies, the base and the planes were abandoned.
There was much negotiation and red tape in dealing with the Marshalls government, as well as a substantial amount of cash being paid to the government for what was left of the airplane. And as described above most of the plane was unusable. (the landscaper had a big piece of the original fuselage skin with the "meatball" still very visible hanging on a wall at his home) They had secured the services of a great fabrication and restoration firm. and basically fabricated and rebuilt the lions share of the airframe, and were looking to obtain spares and other components, like the engine, etc. It took a couple years, and the Sterlings were not not finished at the time of the presentation.
I found a site that describes the project and it subsequent work:
The Tale of a Zero Fighter (warbirdsnews.com)

What a great link! I didn't notice the article's date. Could it be that the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California (a great place to take the kids to see what beautiful things math and science can create) actually has 2 actual Zeros in the same place?

 

[SaparotRob]

Good stuff! Now if only a Buffalo or two could be found.

 

[Zsnark]

I do not think that the 5151 kit was around in 1982. More like 1992 or later. And it would not leave a hole in the ground but barely even dent it.

There was the Thunder Mustang, which was a pretty high powered subscale P-51 and I think it used an auto engine. There were plans for a full scale composite Mustang using a combination of P-51D and P-51H features but while I saw a picture of the mold for the fuselage I do not think I ever saw one built.

In the movie "Empire of the Sun" there is an attack on the Japanese air base by P-51's and in one scene you can see a Mustang fly by in the background that is certainly is a sub scale homebuilt; it has no doors over the wheels.

From a friend whose father was building Thunder Mustang, I was told that it was powered by a V12 built upon Chevrolet big block V8 engines. They must have created a V12 blocked based on the Chev 454 ci engine.

 

[CHAD VEICH]

The Thunder Mustangs utilize the Falconer V12.

Welcome to Ryan Falconer Racing Engines! - Falconer V12

Ryan Falconer Racing Engines has been building, designing and developing race-winning engines for over 50 years. This is the home of the Falconer V12, L6 and IRL Street V8 street rod engines.

falconerengines.com

 

[nuuumannn]

On the subject of film replicas, this, believe it or not was based on a Tiger Moth, it's a Pfalz D III and appeared in the feature film The Blue Max.

Knights of the Sky 74

This is also based on a Tiger and was supposed to appear in the movie Biggles Sweeps The Skies and was known forever as the Biggles Biplane but sadly crashed recently.

BE.2-1

 

[Wurger]

 

[Admiral Beez]

It's an 80% replica with a Ford V-6 engine

What's the point in stopping at 80% scale? You're almost there, why not make it a true to scale replica?

 

[Admiral Beez]

On the subject of film replicas, this, believe it or not was based on a Tiger Moth, it's a Pfalz D III and appeared in the feature film The Blue Max.

View attachment 641778Knights of the Sky 74

This is also based on a Tiger and was supposed to appear in the movie Biggles Sweeps The Skies and was known forever as the Biggles Biplane but sadly crashed recently.

View attachment 641779BE.2-1

In 2019 I visited the Boeing museum of flight in Seattle. Their collection of replica WW1 aircraft is amazing.

Here in southwest Ontario, Canada I have to recommend a day out at The Great War Flying Museum

 

[MIflyer]

What's the point in stopping at 80% scale? You're almost there, why not make it a true to scale replica?

There is an old saying that the last 10% of building an airplane takes 90% of the time. That extra 20% probably would translate into infinity.

And what engine would you use? The guy who built the full scale Spitfire in the US used a V-1710. The difference between an automobile V-6 and a V-1710 is enormous.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There is an old saying that the last 10% of building an airplane takes 90% of the time. That extra 20% probably would translate into infinity.

And what engine would you use? The guy who built the full scale Spitfire in the US used a V-1710. The difference between an automobile V-6 and a V-1710 is enormous.

If you're spending a load on a full size replica, I'd get a big block crate engine, like this 700 hp beast Edelbrock.com: Performance Crate Engines - Chevy Ford GM

$18k will get you a 1,000 hp 632ci Big Block Chevy Pro Street Engine 1,000hp+ 18° Built-To-Order Dyno Tuned | eBay

 

[MIflyer]

With few exceptions, automobile engines are designed to produce big bursts of power - for acceleration - and then settle back to a much lower output - for cruise.

Airplane engines are assumed to operate at much higher power levels, for the entire length of the flight, if required such as in 75% cruise, but have the ability to operate at 100% for extended periods if required.

Thus, most straight adaptions of auto engines for aircraft are not successful. Even assuming you handle the gear reduction problem to match the prop, usually the valves wear out far too fast.

One way to handle this problem is to use an auto engine that is much too large and just operate it at lower power. I recall reading where a clever gentleman built a 3/4 scale P-6E and used a big auto engine, bolting the prop right to the crankshaft. In terms of "Scale" it matched a 3/4 scale Curtiss Conqueror quite well and he just ran it at no more than 75%. And he used a truck engine, which was designed to operate at much higher power levels in the first place.

I read recently where an actual, real, engineer fitted a modified boat engine which was in fact a modified truck engine, to a Cessna 172 and reports that it is excellent in terms of performance, fuel economy, ease of operation, and acquisition cost. His purpose was to provide his daughter with an airplane that was suitable to learn to fly and was better than the Cessnas he learned in over 30 years ago. I wish him the best of luck!

 

[nuuumannn]

What's the point in stopping at 80% scale? You're almost there, why not make it a true to scale replica?

It's a good question and the answer does lie in scale, An 80 percent replica of a Spitfire doesn't require an 800 hp engine, but a full-scale Spitfire requires a 1,000 plus hp engine and dealing with that kind of horsepower in a homebuilt could be disastrous. For most homebuilt pilots, they might have had long careers flying airliners or air force aircraft and piston-powered machines of Piper Navaho and so forth capacity or they mightn't, but to fly a WW2-era piston engined fighter is no mean feat, even when you have had this experience. Warbird pilots not only have years-long careers from either the military or civil world, but they'll tell you that getting into a Spitfire or a Mustang is something else that requires all your skill and accumulated experience as a pilot. They are not for the scant of experience or training.

There's a story about tyro pilots buying surplus P-51s from scrappies after the end of WW2 ending up as smoking holes in the ground and as we know, even the best, most experienced warbird pilots find it hard to fly these machines.

 

[nuuumannn]

In 2019 I visited the Boeing museum of flight in Seattle. Their collection of replica WW1 aircraft is amazing.

It's a place I'd love to go to. I'm fortunate in that I used to work at the RAF Museum for a bit, which meant I had contact with a varied and extensive collection of Great War aircraft a couple of buildings away from my workspace and I used to spend breaktimes wandering through the hangars. It's cathartic. I am a fan of these aircraft. They have an ethereal beauty unmatched in modern aeroplanes.

The Grahame White Hangar at Hendon, with its Vickers Gunbus reproduction, part original/part reproduction FE.2b and almost original Sopwith Camel.

RAFM 46

We are fortunate here in NZ in that we have the likes of Peter Jackson and his wad of money and passion for Great War aircraft that we get to appreciate what we have here. Seeing things like BE.2s and FE.2bs lazily skidding about the sky is something special and makes us appreciate that stuff even more, even if they are reproductions and not original.

Dogfight

 

[Wurger]

 

[Admiral Beez]

getting into a Spitfire or a Mustang is something else that requires all your skill and accumulated experience as a pilot. They are not for the scant of experience or training.

How much training did the 18-22 y/o Spitfire pilots get in 1939-41? I'd think they were giving some hours on a Tiger Moth, the a Master, then thrown into the Spit.

 

[MIflyer]

There's a story about tyro pilots buying surplus P-51s from scrappies after the end of WW2 ending up as smoking holes in the ground

There's a story about a Texas oilman who had a wife that got interested in airplanes and her pilot's license. He decided he wanted a divorce, but instead bought her a surplus F4U Corsair. And an old warbird and a funeral is cheaper than alimony.

 

[nuuumannn]

How much training did the 18-22 y/o Spitfire pilots get in 1939-41? I'd think they were giving some hours on a Tiger Moth, the a Master, then thrown into the Spit.

It kinda' proves my point. How many of them were killed in the first hours of combat? How many were killed in training? The problem here is the context of what you're proposing, Admiral; warbird pilots have vast amount of experience that means they can fly these things and they're not being shot at.