What was the most powerful battleship in a straight duel, May 1941?

[vikingBerserker]

I believe Bismarck's guns had a range of 38k yards vs Rodney's 35k yards. Since she has the speed, all she would need to do is stay outside of Rodney's guns and pound away. In the scenarios that you have posted, what really could have happened to the Bismarck could happen again. Lucky shots still count in war.

 

[Glider]

Interesting! Let us discuss...{Presuming Max range about 22 to 24 thousand yards}.
1)Agreed, 6 to 4 is numerically superior but the likelyhood of landing 6 shells onto an end on target with a compact head on profile profile with a closing speed of 50 plus knots (32 for Bismark, 28 max for Rodney/Nelson) is , to say the least, doubtful. The "Queen Anne's mansions" of R. and N. on the other hand woul have made a slab of a target for the german gun sights, not that i'm saying they would have got 4 out of 4. I envisage the Bismark a.s.a.p. opening her "A" arcs (still at long range) and crossing the"T" making it 8 to 6. That would negate your second point.
2)The R. and N. were notoriously slow in the turn as I said and given the accuracy of the german gunnery, I suspect that by the time all three turrets could bear there would be more than a little damage done to either guns or fire control. One of the concerns from the outset of this triple layout was the very likely possibility of a hit knocking out all three turrets in one go . (A lucky hit I will agree) but the Admiralty were very concened.
3) My presumption of no hits was a little tongue in cheek I must admit.
4) Bismark, having damaged her opponant, then goes hull down to the british directors , works her way round and spends the rest of the battle staying out of the british arc of fire (by virtue of better speed and turning ability)and hammers them in from the quarters. (or b, goes hull down and gets the hell out of there to fight another day.....more likely!!!!)

Scenario 2. Range 22 to 24 thousand yards and closing at 50 plus knots.
At around 20 000 yards both ships open fire, Bismark straddles after 3 salvoes, the inferior british gunnery systems take 5. Salvo 4 from Bismark knocks out the main directorand mid turret, the british 6th salvo hits Bismark with 2 shells, jamming turret Dora and causing engine room damage and speed reduction to less than 30 knots..........over to you..what happens next

Taking it one point at a time
1) At the ranges we are talking about the profile of the ship really doesn't count for much as they are dots on the horizon. In reality both ships would open their arc of fire as sson as they were in effective range so initial stages its 6 vs 4 latterly 8 vs 9.
2) They may well have been slow in the turn but they don't have to turn far to get all the guns firing so that would cancel each other out. At long ranges both ships are more than likely going to miss each other but I would not doubt that the Bismark would have an initial advantage. Remember here that the QE and Shornhurst more or less tie for the honour of hitting the enemy at the longest range so any advantage would be short lived.
3) There is a major assumption here that the Bismark would not be hit or at least damaged. The 16in guns on the Rodney are more than capable of causing serious damage to the Bismark. In the actual battle one 16in hit, knocked out two of Bismarks turrets.
4) Even if Rodney is damaged, the only way the Bismark could stay out of her arc of fire would be if the Rodney was stationary. It doesn't matter if the Rodney is only going 5 knots. If the Bismark wants to stay out of fire then she would be better off at close quarters not long range. If a ship is hull down on the horrizon, then visually you cannot tell if its going 10 kts or 40 kts.

Scenario 2 is way to fancifull. I might as well say Bismark hits with 4th salvo does little damage and the 6th from Rodney knocks out the Bismarks main director. If I remember correctly the Bismark lost her main director to an 8in shell. Or as Bismark turns away to lengthen the range the Rodney hits the stern with a couple of 16in totally ruining her day.

 

[Glider]

I believe Bismarck's guns had a range of 38k yards vs Rodney's 35k yards. Since she has the speed, all she would need to do is stay outside of Rodney's guns and pound away. In the scenarios that you have posted, what really could have happened to the Bismarck could happen again. Lucky shots still count in war.

At 30,000+ yards almost certainly both sides would waste all their ammunition and have some explaining to do when they got home.

 

[HerrKaleut]

Of course its fancifull. On a topic such as this one can extrapolate and theorise until the cows come home, and dream up as many scenarios as you can wish for but where Luck and chance are concerned(and there are large elements of both in a naval battle) one will never reach a conclusive result. You are correct in that Bismark would have been hit eventually, but I believe that the superior german gunnery system would have inflicted sufficient damage sooner in the engagement, to cause a drop in the efficiency of the british fire.

 

[BombTaxi]

IIRC, QE scored hits on a target at 28000 yards to take the record for longest-ranged naval hit of WWII, and this was a fliuke, so arguing about maximum range of the various ship's guns is a moot point, as they will almost certainly be unable to hit anything at 35-38000 yds. Arguing over what hits each salvo will score is also entirely specious, as such things simply cannot be predicted.

What can be said about Bismarck and Tirpitz is that they were not the uber-ships some histories have made them out to be - I believe that, ironically, this reputation stems from the disproportionate fear Churchill and the RN had of these two ships throughout the war. The Bismarck mission, other than destroying HMS Hood (which had been built with all the deadly flaws of her WWI predecessors) and exposing some flaws in RN communications and in the standard of gunnery, achieved absolutely nothing. Even drawing the RN off in a chase cannot be counted as a positive result, as the KM had no other major surface forces with which to exploit the distraction. The Tirpitz was more sucessful, drawing off valuable air resources which could have been used elsewhere in the European theatre. But I do not believe that battleships were of any use to the KM or the war it intended to wage. The money would have been better spent IMHO, on more pocket battleships, or on the 'cruiser-killers' proposed by Zenker in the 1920s.

As for the original question, I think the most powerful BBs of the early war were the North Carolinas. For a start, they were one of the few BB classes in service that were not upgrades or hangovers from WWI designs. They were also fast and well armed, if a little under-armoured.

 

[Torch]

Interesting link....Battleship Comparison

 

[Amsel]

Thanks for the link. Nice find.

 

[HerrKaleut]

just found a line in a ref. book (don't know if there is any relevence to the disussion) but tests done after the war on armour plates taken from the Tirpitz wreck(main belt,deck and side) showed that british 14 and 15 inch shells had no difficulty in complete penetration

 

[Freebird]

Sorry Freebird but if you want the two battleships to approach head on, Rodney (or Nelson) would only have been able to fire 6 of their 9 guns.

They would however probably turn about 15' - 20 deg. off from straight approach to bring all nine guns to bear, in the direction favored by the Bismarck {for retreat or advantage}

The British had the huge advantage of being able to design a ship that could almost always rely on being in a fleet of 2 - 4 BB, so would not be as concerned about the lack of rear firing turrets.

As for the original question, I think the most powerful BBs of the early war were the North Carolinas. For a start, they were one of the few BB classes in service that were not upgrades or hangovers from WWI designs. They were also fast and well armed, if a little under-armoured.

Yes sadly for the British, the pre war muddle of different designs treaty requirements, the cancellation of the "Lions" left them without a truly modern, dominant BB.



Questions in our hypothetical discussion, suppose the Nelson and the Bismarck are closing in on each other {at about 20 -24 knots each} what would be their respective strategies? Do they try do close in to point-blank range? Or stay out at longer distances for plunging fire? How do the British prevent the faster German ship from getting into the rear arc?

{The hypothetical situation assumes the highly usual situation of the two ships meeting head to head with no other support }

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello All,
Just joining in to this discussion. Strangely enough, I bought the book "Battleship Bismarck" today. Spent the last hour or two reading it. It is quite good.

First, I'll state a couple opinions and admit upfront that there isn't a lot of education to back them up:
The comment in the last post about the Bismarck being able to maneuver around the Rodney to get away from its all forward armament I believe is unreasonable. If the ships are close enough to make this possible, they are so close that it is already a slugging match and the battle should be decided before that happens. If the ships are far enough apart so that critical hits don't decide the battle quickly, the speed advantage isn't enough to make this maneuver possible unless the Rodney simply does nothing for a while.

I believe the dispersion problem mentioned earlier is mostly due to muzzle blast interference between the set of guns mounted in a turret. At least on the Iowa class, this was recognized and the gun firings were electrically staggered to reduce the effect. There is at least one very famous photograph of shells in flight from an Iowa class BB's guns that show that the shells are 20-100 feet apart (can't remember the exact distance because I never measured the separation versus the size of the guns or turret) as they leave the guns.

My belief is that the North Carolina would be the most powerful ship in a pure slugging match among the battleships listed here. Its guns are a class well above any of the other ships listed. Its protection is fair as is its speed.

- Ivan.

 

[Freebird]

The comment in the last post about the Bismarck being able to maneuver around the Rodney to get away from its all forward armament I believe is unreasonable. If the ships are close enough to make this possible, they are so close that it is already a slugging match and the battle should be decided before that happens

I was wondering, suppose the Bismarck tried approaching the Rodney at full speed, when they came together both ships could fire a full broadside, but then as the Bismark passed behind the Rodney could fire the aft guns while turning AWAY from Rodney's turn. Would it work? {Assuming that both ships survived the point-blank broadside}}

Its guns are a class well above any of the other ships listed. Its protection is fair as is its speed.

- Ivan.

How are it's guns superior to others of the same caliber? {Nelson, Nagato Littorio all have 16" guns}

 

[Amsel]

One of the things that really put the North Carolina at an advantage is the USN's understanding of ship armor. The armor on the US battleships was advanced. An AP hit to its vitals would be rendered ineffective before it hit the magazine or powerplant by its main armor belt, splinterdeck and then the additional plate protecting the vitals. The North Carolina's vitals would be impervious to any 14' hits and would explode 16" rounds at the outer hull plate plate before it could pentrate the main armor belt or the inner plate. The Bismarcks armor protection was very good as well. And it resisted scuttling very well. I think the battle would come down to luck and crew skill due to the toughness of these battleships.

I found this diagram but do not know the original source.

 

[Glider]

I was wondering, suppose the Bismarck tried approaching the Rodney at full speed, when they came together both ships could fire a full broadside, but then as the Bismark passed behind the Rodney could fire the aft guns while turning AWAY from Rodney's turn. Would it work? {Assuming that both ships survived the point-blank broadside}}

It would never happen

How are it's guns superior to others of the same caliber? {Nelson, Nagato Littorio all have 16" guns}

Nelson and Nagoto had old 16in guns, Littorio had 15in.

 

[Amsel]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQs0ziSU

Thought this vid would be interesting and add to the conversation.

 

[Freebird]

It would never happen
.

Why not?

 

[Glider]

Why not?

Because if both ships approached each other down to Point Blank Range head on they would turn broadside on before they reached each other. If for some unknown reason they decided to play chicken its most likely that both would be blazing hulks before they reached each other.

These shells weigh around 1,800lb Bismark - 2,000lb Nelson and at PB range they would each be getting multiple hits per shoot. 6 x 2,000lb 16in guns forward firing vs 4 x 1,800lb 15 in, both at PB range capable of penetrating each others protection, it just wouldn't happen.
Not forgetting the 6in secondary guns on each capable of doing damage to the more lightly protected areas of each ship and just for fun, the Nelson might torpedo the Bismark with its 24.5in torpedo tube as they passed.
Nope this would never happen

 

[Freebird]

Because if both ships approached each other down to Point Blank Range head on they would turn broadside on before they reached each other. If for some unknown reason they decided to play chicken its most likely that both would be blazing hulks before they reached each other.

These shells weigh around 1,800lb Bismark - 2,000lb Nelson and at PB range they would each be getting multiple hits per shoot. 6 x 2,000lb 16in guns forward firing vs 4 x 1,800lb 15 in, both at PB range capable of penetrating each others protection, it just wouldn't happen.
Not forgetting the 6in secondary guns on each capable of doing damage to the more lightly protected areas of each ship and just for fun, the Nelson might torpedo the Bismark with its 24.5in torpedo tube as they passed.
Nope this would never happen

Well then, what do you consider that each captain would try to do? The Nelson would probably like to keep the approach as long as possible, where they can fire all 9 guns and deny the Bismarck access to the rear 4. The Bismarck would like to get broadside as soon as possible to even up the guns 9 to 8

 

[Glider]

They would both turn to fire full broadsides as soon as they were within effective range. As to what that is would depend on the Captains involved then it down to the training of the crews, equipment and dumb luck.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

The 16 inch 45 Caliber on the North Carolina or 16 inch 50 Caliber gun on the Iowas launched a shell that was much heavier than the others. I believe they had at least two different weight shells and the heavier was 2700 pounds. The lighter shell was 2200 lbs IIRC. I believe that the weight of the shells is a better comparison of large naval guns than a simple comparision of bore diameter.

The concept of "effective range" isn't described easily by just one number.

- Ivan.

 

[Stitch]

The 16 inch 45 Caliber on the North Carolina or 16 inch 50 Caliber gun on the Iowas launched a shell that was much heavier than the others. I believe they had at least two different weight shells and the heavier was 2700 pounds. The lighter shell was 2200 lbs IIRC. I believe that the weight of the shells is a better comparison of large naval guns than a simple comparision of bore diameter.

The concept of "effective range" isn't described easily by just one number.

- Ivan.

Close; there was the "AP" shell, which weighed in at 2,700 lbs., and the "standard" HE shell, which weighed in at 1,900 lbs.

BTW, for those of you interested in the Iowas, the best book out there is probably Malcolm Muir's "The Iowa Class Battleships: Iowa, New Jersey, Missouri Wisconsin"; it has a wealth of data, especially in the appendices, on everything from the armor, to the guns, to the projectlies, etc.