What were the long ranger bombers in '39/40

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Vincenzo, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    What were the long ranger bombers in '39/40?
    I'm talking of actually bombers, not prototypes or tests planes.
    For keep out all discussion on what is a long ranger bomber for this thread, please, it's a long range bomber a bomber that can, with 1000 kg of bombs, hit a target, or best try to hit a target, 1500 kilometer away from their bases and back at home.
    thanks
     
  2. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    B-17 and Halifax for sure, the B-24 first flew in 1939 and operational in early 1941. The Soviet Il-4 while only twin engine could achieve the range/payload - ditto the Japanese G4M1 and the He 111, although the G4M1 while flown in 1939 (like B-24) also didn't achieve ops until mid 1941.
     
  3. Waynos

    Waynos Active Member

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    In 39-40 there were the early model B-17's, the ones with the small fin and no tail gunner, which I think were the only US long range bomber in service with a few in the RAF but these were quickly pulled from bomber ops due to their poor defensive armament and general performance (these were very different from the B-17's that would later pummel Germany).

    There was no 4 engine heavy in RAF sevice at all but the Short Stirling reached the squadrons in 1940, with the first ops in Feb 1941, the Halibag reached service shortly after and was the first 4 engined heavy to drop bombs on Germany in March of that year.

    However in 1939-40 the RAF's primary long range bomber was the twin engined types Wellington and Whitley, which were classed as long range heavies when they entered service.

    The Whitley I had a range of 1650 miles with a 4,000lb load dropping right down to 450 miles with the full load of 7,000lb.

    The Wellington had a range of 1,540 miles with a 5,400lb load making it the best load lugger for the RAF's needs at the time. This compars with the (B-17C) Fortress I's 2,000miles with a (max) 4,400lb load. The other RAF long range bomber was the Vickers Wellesley. This type had set the world distance record in 1938 (later broken by a USAF B-52) but was very obsolete when war broke out and was banished to the Middle East 'out of the way'.
     
  4. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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  5. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    from all i think it's ok the B-17, i'm not 100% sure for DB-3 (Il 4 early variant), i don't think that british twin and heinkel can take the requirement in radius, the G3M can take it but can't take load requirement (B-24, halifax, G4M aren't actually bombers) the stirling also it's ok but not bomber anything in 1940.
    some have info on the french four engined farman late variants?
    for TB-3 all source i found give not enough range
     
  6. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    The B-17B and Halifax I aircraft were certainly in production in 1940 so fit the 'non test' smell criteria even if they weren't superb combat craft when first operational.
     
  7. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Ok - 2000km total for the TB-3 :oops:
     
  8. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    afaik november it's for initial delivery
     
  9. Arsenal VG-33

    Arsenal VG-33 Member

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    A quick look at some of my references on French bombers:

    Amiot 143: 1995 km (1240 miles)
    Bloch 210: 1700 km (1056 miles)
    Farman 222: 1995 km (1240 miles)

    a variant, the F. 223, was the first Allied plane to bomb Berlin
    on June 7, 1940. It's round trip was over 2,000 miles, due to
    it's long flight path drawn up to avoid enemy air defenses.

    Bloch 131: 890 km (553 miles)
    LeO 451: 2900 km (1802 miles)
     
  10. Waynos

    Waynos Active Member

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    They don't meet your criteria Vincenzo, but they were the longest ranged available at the time, the Wellesley did set a 7,000+ mile non stop distance record though with only one engine, and naturally no bombs.
     
  11. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    Was the Stirling out in 1939-40 or was it still in the developmental stage?
     
  12. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    Stirling delivery started in august 1940 but no mission until february 1941, so i think it's near but not full in timeline
     
  13. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    I'm just talking of 223 maybe it can take the criteria.
    in your info that are range or radius?
     
  14. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Delivery to operational Bomb Squadron 35 if wiki is correct.

    Handley Page Halifax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    >Vincenzo - What were the long ranger bombers in '39/40?
    I'm talking of actually bombers, not prototypes or tests planes.
    For keep out all discussion on what is a long ranger bomber for this thread, please, it's a long range bomber a bomber that can, with 1000 kg of bombs, hit a target, or best try to hit a target, 1500 kilometer away from their bases and back at home.
    thanks<

    It meets your criteria. Actual bomber. Not Prototype. Not Test. Can carry 1000kg 1500km away from base.

    If you meant to say "Only those that actually performed that combat mission before the end of 1940 - then you need to be clearer on your criteria.

    Otherwise the Sterling and the Halifax explicilty meet your stated criteria as they were Operational bombers in operational squadrons - capable of the performance you stipulated - not prototypes or experimental a/c -

    Both were in full production series, production lines with aircraft work in process, and deleveries made to real combat units - not test units.
     
  15. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    already done this discussion, i'm talking of operational status, all free to think what thjey want, but for me a new airplane delivered in november was not a operational plane in that year, need time for crew and ground crew, for stirling there are many probability that it's ok (was delivered in august). but it the planes can bombing in december why wait february, there is a war no time to waste
     
  16. Arsenal VG-33

    Arsenal VG-33 Member

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    Overall range.

    Given your criteria of taking a 1,000 kg bomb load to a target 1,500 km away then back (3,000 km total), then only 1, possibly 2 French bombers could be recommended:

    The Farman 223 variants could fill that role, carrying a maximum of 4185 kg (9226 lbs) bombload to the maximum range of over 2,000 miles, IF they were fitted out like the Jules Verne F.NC.223.4 which bombed Berlin. These variants carried just over 3 tons of bombs over 3,000 miles, although the Berlin mission involved a 2 ton (4,000 lbs) bomb load, for 131 hours flight time!

    Great story about this here:

    SOLO TO BERLIN War and Game


    The only other French bomber to come close to your requirements would be the Le0 451 with a maximum of 1,000 kg (2205 lbs) bombload, to 2,900 km (1,802 miles), or 100 km short of your requirements.
     
  17. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    thank for info on 223, so we can sure put in in long range bomber.
    actually radius is not exactly half of range.
    i found an other plane that take the criteria the S.M. 82 a triengined transport with secondary capacity as bomber (it's that of raid on manama oil facilities in october 1940, from rhodos and back in eritrea for 4200 km of range (2500 for go and 1700 for back i think)
     
  18. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    The early Do-217 and most of the Do-215 series bomber could do this. The Do-217E could carry a bombload of 3000 Kg over 2500Km on 2.100 Kg internal fuel. Reduction of the bombload to 2000 Kg should increase the range figure to ~3500Km. Reduction of the bombload to the specified 1000 Kg should translate to another +1000 Km, probably less because drop tanks have to be fitted.
     
  19. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    The Do 215 have many less of radius request (maybe 1/3), the only allovable, in timeline, Do 217 was A and i've no data on that but luftwaffe used this only as reconaissance planes.
     
  20. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    The Do-217A0 pre serial and B0 pre serial bombers saw service in late 1940 so they do qualify. I stand corrected with the Do-215.
    The Fw-200 "could" do the same but was not necessarely a military plane by this time as were the BV Ha139.
    To strike a target at 1500 km distance is a daunting task, this would require a range in excess of 4000km with 1000 Kg payload. The only serial bomber, deployed in numbers and operational in the 1939/40 timeframe I can think of is the japanese G3M1/2 model 21/22 "Nell" bomber. It falls slightly short in payload (800 Kg instead of 1000 Kg) but significantly exceeds the range requirement (4.380 Km with max. bombload). 610 of them were produced 1939 to 1941.
    With overload condition two 500 Kg bombs could be carried externally. Range should allow to strike targets in 1500 km distance.
    G3M Nells are credited with carrying out attack missions from Taipeh to targets in east China, some 2.316 Km distant as early as 1937.
     
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