What's going to happen to the T-38?

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davparlr

davparlr

Senior Master Sergeant
3,296
658
Mar 23, 2006
Southern California
With the proposed upgrade of the TX trainer program which is scheduled in a couple of years, what is the AF going to do with the 200 or so T-38s its got? I suspect there are quite a few people who would like to get their hands on one. They are probably well maintain (I believe there was a recent wing replacement program), although old, but with many trained mechanics to work on them, over 12000 J-85 engines have been manufactured and some still in use (Scaled Composites White Knight) so engine parts should be easily gotten. But, oh what a plane, pressurized up to 40k ft +, capable of 1.2 Mach, cruising speed of greater than 500 mph, climb to 40k ft. in 90 seconds, approach speed, light, is 155 kts (almost 180 mph). It is a predictable and safe aircraft if flown by the numbers, but, just just like a high performance WW2 fighter, it would take a lot of training to fly one safe. Anyone want to get in line for one?
 
FLYBOYJ said:
I suspect they will go to "Davy Mohns" to eventually get chopped up. Unkle Sam doesn't want the liability seeing these on the civilian market BUT I'm wondering if they would be made available to "lease" to a worthy defense contractor.
Click to expand...

FLYBOYJ said:
I suspect they will go to "Davy Mohns" to eventually get chopped up. Unkle Sam doesn't want the liability seeing these on the civilian market BUT I'm wondering if they would be made available to "lease" to a worthy defense contractor.
Click to expand...
That would be a tragedy. Many pilots would lament the destruction of a classic and wonderful aircraft. Who could forget that first walk out on the flight line towards that aircraft that looked like it was going supersonic just sitting there. Then climbing into the cockpit and realizing that if you could master this plane you could fly any airplane in the AF inventory. Then, on the runway, there was the brake release, kick-in of the after burners pushing against you, rotation and reaching for the gear lever only to see that the instructor had beat you to it because you were already approaching the 250 kt gear door limitation speed, and thinking "My God, this is a fast aircraft"!

I remember watching, with a heavy heart, the tractors ripping the fuselage of C-141s apart. It was a powerful and reliable war-horse for forty years. Because of complexity it was often a pain to get off of home base, but once the gear was in the well, it would take you anywhere in the world and back with little whimper. A few places I went in four years of flying the C-141:

Canada-Goose Bay, Gander, St. Johns

Greeland-Sondrestrom Fjord (at the bottom of the fjord (scary, lost a C-141 and crew there) co-pilot, Thule, Nord (500 miles from the north pole, landed on snow between barrels, co-pilot)

Iceland-Keflavik (seemed always at minimums)

England-Mildenhall, Greenham Commons

Germany-Frankfurt, Bitburg

Spain-Torrejon (Madrid), Rota

Protugal-Lajes (Azores, great bread, seemed always to have gusting crosswinds)

Italy- Sigonella (Sicily), Naples, Pisa, Aviano (you don't want to fly north of the field)

Greece-Athens

Crete- Thessaloniki

Lebanon-Beirut (scary place, AK-47 armed men on every building, lots of Russian transports)

Turkey-Aviano, yep, same name. More bad aircraft launched out of Aviano than any other base.

Iran-Tehran (before the revolution, crazy drivers!) interesting four ADF approach to ILS final.

Ethopia-Asmera (part of Ethopia then), Addis Ababa (very poor county, almost 8k altitude makes for a very short 10k runway.

Ivory Coast-Abidjan, 24 hour emergency air evac mission from Frankfurt and back to bring back one Peace Corp volunteer with an ulcer. Long mission but proud to do it.

Japan-Yakota (Tokyo), Kadena (Okinawa)

Vietnam- Tan Son Nhut Air Base (Saigon)

Thailand-Ubon, Udorn, U-tapao, Korat

Philippines-Clark Air Base

All in four years.

Granted most of these places were basically land, unload, reload, refuel, blast off, but all were interesting.

So if you want to see the world, deal with various traffic control systems (some who don't speak English very well), fly various approaches in divers weather, be involved up front in world events (I flew the first, Joint Chief of Staff controlled, mission in support of Israel during the Yom Kippur war and made CBS news, they mistook my C-141 for an EL AL airliner going to Israel, so much for secrecy). Fly diverse missions from flying frozen meals to Artic stations, to flying the presidents car and secret service around to emergency air evacs. All of this while flying state of the art aircraft, C-17s now, Join the Air Force and fly Air Mobility Command, Military Airlift Command (MAC) in my day.
 
I worked at a place where we operated several F-4s that were leased from the USAF. We had to jump through hoops to get the aircraft and show compliance that we were able to adequately maintain them and keep the pilots flying the aircraft proficient. Because they carried civilian registrations, we also had to deal with the FAA who did not like the USAF 781A and Form 95 documentation system and the fact that those documents were filled out with pencil, so we kept 2 sets of records. The FAA tried to give us crap about having hot seats and the ability to jettison "items" on our pylons. Despite this, the company operated these aircraft for several years.

I know there are companies flying former military aircraft (Hunters, Kifirs) but don't know if any civilian organization is leasing fighter or training aircraft from the US Government.
 
1656437578142.png
 
davparlr said:
That would be a tragedy. Many pilots would lament the destruction of a classic and wonderful aircraft. Who could forget that first walk out on the flight line towards that aircraft that looked like it was going supersonic just sitting there. Then climbing into the cockpit and realizing that if you could master this plane you could fly any airplane in the AF inventory. Then, on the runway, there was the brake release, kick-in of the after burners pushing against you, rotation and reaching for the gear lever only to see that the instructor had beat you to it because you were already approaching the 250 kt gear door limitation speed, and thinking "My God, this is a fast aircraft"!

I remember watching, with a heavy heart, the tractors ripping the fuselage of C-141s apart. It was a powerful and reliable war-horse for forty years. Because of complexity it was often a pain to get off of home base, but once the gear was in the well, it would take you anywhere in the world and back with little whimper. A few places I went in four years of flying the C-141:

Canada-Goose Bay, Gander, St. Johns --- First days of Desert Shield in August... tell me I'm going to Saudi; I pack accordingly. Drop me off in Goose Bay with snow on the ground. Spent 60 days there.

Greeland-Sondrestrom Fjord (at the bottom of the fjord (scary, lost a C-141 and crew there) co-pilot, Thule, Nord (500 miles from the north pole, landed on snow between barrels, co-pilot) Ah Thule... another place to freeze your tail off in the middle of summer.

Iceland-Keflavik (seemed always at minimums) Spent the night a few times. Wonderful people.

England-Mildenhall, Greenham Commons HOG CALL!! (Plus Lakenheath)

Germany-Frankfurt, Bitburg Also Spengdahlem and Rhine Main. Staged out of Rhine Main to fly folks around for INF inspections.

Spain-Torrejon (Madrid), Rota-- Ah Rota... and the Led Zeppelin club and Lisa. Of course Lisa.

Protugal-Lajes (Azores, great bread, seemed always to have gusting crosswinds) Terrific restaurants in town, wonderful food and welcoming people.

Italy- Sigonella (Sicily), Naples, Pisa, Aviano (you don't want to fly north of the field)... More time in Sig and Aviano than I wish.

Greece-Athens-- they told us there were people there that wanted to kill us, so stay in the hotel. Plus terrible air quality.

Crete- Thessaloniki

Lebanon-Beirut (scary place, AK-47 armed men on every building, lots of Russian transports) Got to Tel Aviv, not Leb.

Turkey-Aviano, yep, same name. More bad aircraft launched out of Aviano than any other base. Been to Incirlik a few times for Northern Watch. The casino/hotel we stayed at had some really beautiful women that were the nightclub entertainment.

Iran-Tehran (before the revolution, crazy drivers!) interesting four ADF approach to ILS final.

Ethopia-Asmera (part of Ethopia then), Addis Ababa (very poor county, almost 8k altitude makes for a very short 10k runway. Got to Djibuti during Somalia crisis

Ivory Coast-Abidjan, 24 hour emergency air evac mission from Frankfurt and back to bring back one Peace Corp volunteer with an ulcer. Long mission but proud to do it. --- got here once... don't want to go there again.

Japan-Yakota (Tokyo), Kadena (Okinawa) Lots of time at both, also doing TDY as transient maintenance

Vietnam- Tan Son Nhut Air Base (Saigon) Got to Hanoi once for Repatriation mission.

Thailand-Ubon, Udorn, U-tapao, Korat --- Good times all...

Philippines-Clark Air Base -- was doing transient maintenance here just a few weeks before the volcano blew.
Click to expand...
davparlr said:
All in four years.

Granted most of these places were basically land, unload, reload, refuel, blast off, but all were interesting.

So if you want to see the world, deal with various traffic control systems (some who don't speak English very well), fly various approaches in divers weather, be involved up front in world events (I flew the first, Joint Chief of Staff controlled, mission in support of Israel during the Yom Kippur war and made CBS news, they mistook my C-141 for an EL AL airliner going to Israel, so much for secrecy). Fly diverse missions from flying frozen meals to Artic stations, to flying the presidents car and secret service around to emergency air evacs. All of this while flying state of the art aircraft, C-17s now, Join the Air Force and fly Air Mobility Command, Military Airlift Command (MAC) in my day.
Click to expand...
So in keeping with the thread, one of the first things they did at Sheppard to introduce a young airman to life as an aircraft mechanic, was to have you work on T-38's. What a great looking aircraft.

Lamenting the demise of -141's, I was a flying Crew Chief on one for 10 years, my experiences mirror that of yours, see above. I went to a lot of other places as well such as most of Central and South America. My -141 years were some of the best of my life.
 
davparlr said:
With the proposed upgrade of the TX trainer program which is scheduled in a couple of years, what is the AF going to do with the 200 or so T-38s its got? I suspect there are quite a few people who would like to get their hands on one. They are probably well maintain (I believe there was a recent wing replacement program), although old, but with many trained mechanics to work on them, over 12000 J-85 engines have been manufactured and some still in use (Scaled Composites White Knight) so engine parts should be easily gotten. But, oh what a plane, pressurized up to 40k ft +, capable of 1.2 Mach, cruising speed of greater than 500 mph, climb to 40k ft. in 90 seconds, approach speed, light, is 155 kts (almost 180 mph). It is a predictable and safe aircraft if flown by the numbers, but, just just like a high performance WW2 fighter, it would take a lot of training to fly one safe. Anyone want to get in line for one?
Click to expand...
I hope they just keep them flying. For the reasons you note, they are great little aircraft. I actually sold T-38s and F-5 for Northrop in the late 60s and 70s. Bill L.
 
FLYBOYJ said:
I worked at a place where we operated several F-4s that were leased from the USAF. We had to jump through hoops to get the aircraft and show compliance that we were able to adequately maintain them and keep the pilots flying the aircraft proficient. Because they carried civilian registrations, we also had to deal with the FAA who did not like the USAF 781A and Form 95 documentation system and the fact that those documents were filled out with pencil, so we kept 2 sets of records. The FAA tried to give us crap about having hot seats and the ability to jettison "items" on our pylons. Despite this, the company operated these aircraft for several years.

I know there are companies flying former military aircraft (Hunters, Kifirs) but don't know if any civilian organization is leasing fighter or training aircraft from the US Government.
Click to expand...
I worked at Raytheon in the Late 50s and early 60s and we had a couple of F-4s on bailment from the Navy as part of the Sparrow program. They were based at Hanscome AFB in Mass.
 
Carrera2 said:
I worked at Raytheon in the Late 50s and early 60s and we had a couple of F-4s on bailment from the Navy as part of the Sparrow program. They were based at Hanscome AFB in Mass.
Click to expand...
The ones I worked around were in Mojave, CA, late 1990s. We were also droning them.

1656695624871.png


Photo credit to owner
 
davparlr said:
That would be a tragedy. Many pilots would lament the destruction of a classic and wonderful aircraft. Who could forget that first walk out on the flight line towards that aircraft that looked like it was going supersonic just sitting there. Then climbing into the cockpit and realizing that if you could master this plane you could fly any airplane in the AF inventory. Then, on the runway, there was the brake release, kick-in of the after burners pushing against you, rotation and reaching for the gear lever only to see that the instructor had beat you to it because you were already approaching the 250 kt gear door limitation speed, and thinking "My God, this is a fast aircraft"!

I remember watching, with a heavy heart, the tractors ripping the fuselage of C-141s apart. It was a powerful and reliable war-horse for forty years. Because of complexity it was often a pain to get off of home base, but once the gear was in the well, it would take you anywhere in the world and back with little whimper. A few places I went in four years of flying the C-141:

Canada-Goose Bay, Gander, St. Johns

Greeland-Sondrestrom Fjord (at the bottom of the fjord (scary, lost a C-141 and crew there) co-pilot, Thule, Nord (500 miles from the north pole, landed on snow between barrels, co-pilot)

Iceland-Keflavik (seemed always at minimums)

England-Mildenhall, Greenham Commons

Germany-Frankfurt, Bitburg

Spain-Torrejon (Madrid), Rota

Protugal-Lajes (Azores, great bread, seemed always to have gusting crosswinds)

Italy- Sigonella (Sicily), Naples, Pisa, Aviano (you don't want to fly north of the field)

Greece-Athens

Crete- Thessaloniki

Lebanon-Beirut (scary place, AK-47 armed men on every building, lots of Russian transports)

Turkey-Aviano, yep, same name. More bad aircraft launched out of Aviano than any other base.

Iran-Tehran (before the revolution, crazy drivers!) interesting four ADF approach to ILS final.

Ethopia-Asmera (part of Ethopia then), Addis Ababa (very poor county, almost 8k altitude makes for a very short 10k runway.

Ivory Coast-Abidjan, 24 hour emergency air evac mission from Frankfurt and back to bring back one Peace Corp volunteer with an ulcer. Long mission but proud to do it.

Japan-Yakota (Tokyo), Kadena (Okinawa)

Vietnam- Tan Son Nhut Air Base (Saigon)

Thailand-Ubon, Udorn, U-tapao, Korat

Philippines-Clark Air Base

All in four years.

Granted most of these places were basically land, unload, reload, refuel, blast off, but all were interesting.

So if you want to see the world, deal with various traffic control systems (some who don't speak English very well), fly various approaches in divers weather, be involved up front in world events (I flew the first, Joint Chief of Staff controlled, mission in support of Israel during the Yom Kippur war and made CBS news, they mistook my C-141 for an EL AL airliner going to Israel, so much for secrecy). Fly diverse missions from flying frozen meals to Artic stations, to flying the presidents car and secret service around to emergency air evacs. All of this while flying state of the art aircraft, C-17s now, Join the Air Force and fly Air Mobility Command, Military Airlift Command (MAC) in my day.
Click to expand...
Interesting comments, thanks! Bill L.
 
My USAF recruiter had been a loadmaster for a C-141. When I had the temerity to joke that "I don't want to be shoveling luggage", he braced and told me, "Listen, if you don't get that right, people die", and then went into CoG issues in depth for about five minutes while I sat there, flushed in the face.
 
soulezoo said:
So in keeping with the thread, one of the first things they did at Sheppard to introduce a young airman to life as an aircraft mechanic, was to have you work on T-38's. What a great looking aircraft.

Lamenting the demise of -141's, I was a flying Crew Chief on one for 10 years, my experiences mirror that of yours, see above. I went to a lot of other places as well such as most of Central and South America. My -141 years were some of the best of my life.
Click to expand...
Thumpalumpacus said:
My USAF recruiter had been a loadmaster for a C-141. When I had the temerity to joke that "I don't want to be shoveling luggage", he braced and told me, "Listen, if you don't get that right, people die", and then went into CoG issues in depth for about five minutes while I sat there, flushed in the face.
Click to expand...
Loadmasters and Cg calculations are critical for safe operations of an aircraft, especially cargo type, and are as valued crewmembers as any other aboard. I seen crash reviews where Cgs were off and as soon as the aircraft rotated, they were dead.

One other location I forgot to mention, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as co-pilot. Interesting and tricky approach.
 
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