Which aircraft could be adapted easier for long range naval recon: Do19 or Ju89?

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The Messerschmitt Bf-165 jealously killed off by Ernst Udet in 1937 after the death of General Wever.

MesserschmittBf-165BananaBomber_zpseb11ffba.jpg


As underpowered as this aircraft was with four Jumo 210 engines of just 681hp each (used on the Ju-87A Stuka and Bf109 prototypes) it had sufficient range to reach New York from Brest France (6,000km) and back, delivering a 1,000kg bomb load. Willy Messerscmitt in 1937 carefully staged an accidental encounter between Hitler and the Bf-165 mock-up during a visit by Hitler to the Messerschmitt Bf109 factory. When asked by Hitler what the bomber's top speed was (320kt) Hitler scoffed that it needed to be faster than the fighters, yet most contemporary German bombers could barely manage half the same speed. Messerschmitt objected that its speed was limited by the inadequate power plants available to him, thus had he been able to do so would have wished to re-engine the Bf-165 with the same Daimler Benz DB601 engines employed by the Bf109. Had this occurred it would have led either to greater range or bomb loads.

Willi Messerschmitt disguised this private pre-war venture as a proposal for a banana freighter able to fly fruit non stop from Brazil to Germany thus it was known as the Bananaflugzeug. It was also contemporary with the He116A developed for a Deutsch Luft Hansa competition for an airliner able to fly non-stop over the Pamir mountains to Japan.

The He116 (looking like an He-111 with four engines) was even more underpowered than the Bf-165 with just four 244hp Hirth engines, yet proved capable of the intended mission to Japan.

Had Germany entered WWII with a few squadrons of Bf-165 rather than He-111 then the Battle of Britain could have had an entirely different outcome owing to their high speed and ability to operate up to 6,500m. As a naval recon aircraft it could have covered both seaboards of the Atlantic with huge growth potential as engines became available. In appearance it resembled a beefy four engined Hampden bomber.

While its an interesting project - mentioned, btw, in Robert Forsyth Eddie J Creek's book on the Me 264 Messerschmitt Me 264 Amerikabomber: The Luftwaffe's Lost Transatlantic Bomber: Robert Forsyth, Eddie J. Creek: 9781903223659: - all of the figures have to be estimates of its performance, with no evidence that the projected figures would have been achieved once the aircraft was in operational service. For a start, with DB 601s, the projected range would have been drastically reduced, while the airframe would have to be beefed up to take the longer, heavier engines. There's no mention as to whether armour was fitted for the crew, nor what the "considerable armament" was supposed to be. By the time all of the necessary operational equipment was fitted, along with the new, more powerful engines, it would not have been able to cover both seaboards of the Atlantic. While there was supposedly huge growth potential is there any concrete evidence of that?

Nor is there any mention of where the raw materials for its production were meant to come from, or the large numbers of extra engines it would have needed - while the He 111 might have been sacrificed, there were not even enough DB 601s available to power more than a small sub-series of the He 111, meaning that the Jumo 211 would have had to be used, meaning that (probably) the Ju 88 would have been either delayed or sacrificed. Chances are it would have only been slightly faster than the He 111, while it's operating height of 6,500 metres would have still left it vulnerable to the RAF's fighters.
 
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One also has to wonder about the comparison with the He 116.

A 3-4 seat mailplane. No guns, cruising speeds 30-50mph lower than the He 111 and the "mission" to Japan took over 54 hours of flying time (one way) but 6 days. A good performance for a 15,000lb 900-1000hp aircraft but hardly the basis for any sort of bomber.
 
Nothing Germany can do about that if they wait until 1935 to start rearmament. It takes time to build a military-industrial complex from scratch.

Boy, those Germans worked like busy beavers from 1935, creating an entire arms industry from nothing; it's air force, the Luftwaffe comprised almost solely of airliners and what could Britain do to counter the German threat to its civilian air routes? With her desperate shortage of aluminium the Hurricane and Mosquito had to be made of wood.
 
For a reality check on the "banana" bomber one could look at the Boeing XB-15. It could NOT do what was claimed for the banana bomber. It could barely fly ONE WAY 3400 miles with a 2000lb bomb load, let alone return. IF the speed was 320kph and NOT 320Kts it might be a a bit more believable but then you have the phrase " yet most contemporary German bombers could barely manage half the same speed." Contemporary German bombers could only do 160KPH?

Even a Do 11 could hit 260kph.

Dornier_Do_11.jpg


This was one of those aircraft that the German busy beavers (with the aid of time machines) had built and in service in 1933-34 after starting in 1935 :)
 
Willy Messerscmitt in 1937 carefully staged an accidental encounter between Hitler and the Bf-165 mock-up during a visit by Hitler to the Messerschmitt Bf109 factory. When asked by Hitler what the bomber's top speed was (320kt) Hitler scoffed that it needed to be faster than the fighters, yet most contemporary German bombers could barely manage half the same speed.

320kts is about 370mph/595kph.
That's a lot faster than the contemporary fighters of the day.
There's a mistake in there somewhere, I think 320kph is more likely (320kph is about 200mph/172kts).

There's no way that plane was a 370mph/595kph bomber....on Jumo 210's?
 

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