Which aircraft could be adapted easier for long range naval recon: Do19 or Ju89?
- Thread starter wiking85
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Shortround6
Major General
That depends on the plane, Catalina's did pretty good. Hudson's and Wellingtons did pretty good too.
Over water is easier than trying to return over land since the plane can drop down to just a few thousand feet and fly slow. With no Flak to worry about and few (if any) enemy fighters it is much easier even if more than a bit nerve racking. Over enemy held land areas more height is needed to avoid small caliber AA guns And more speed is wanted to reduce chances of interception. Both altitude and speed require more power from the remaining engine.
For long range you do need 4 engines if you want decent performance to go with the the range. A twin is only going to have so much gross weight and so much fuel.
Kryten
Senior Airman
you can spot the wake of a ship from a lot farther than you can see the ship so "flying relatively low" can be interpreted in many ways, the oceans vast and you need some altitude and many eyes to search with any kind of efficiency!
davebender
1st Lieutenant
I agree. 3 or 4 engines is the way to go if you have time to develop such a complicated aircraft.
However the author of this scenerio wants something operational by 1940. That's a tall order for 1930s Germany as they are starting munitions production almost from scratch during 1935. They might need an interim twin engine maritime patrol aircraft until the 4 engine He-177B enters service during 1941 or 1942.
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- #25
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Or say a Ju89 with more powerful engines than it debuted with AND a slightly larger fuselage with more fuel tanks. We could even try the Condor style as well: close off the bomb bay, fill it with extra fuel tanks, and mount bombs on wing hardpoints. (the Condor didn't have a bomb bay though, the Ju89 will have greater flexibility in that regard).
Plus with it first flying in April 1937, it would have at almost two and a half years of development before it would need to enter production to be available by June 1940 (assuming it would take 9 months to go from the start of production to having an operational Geschwader). Tooling time would take about a year, so at least the frame would need to be settled by October 1938, so that a 9-12 month of tooling could start then, though tweeks wouldn't upset tooling too much if development continued.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
He-177B was far superior to the Ju-89. I can scarcely imagine settling for the inferior aircraft. Fw-200 and long range seaplanes are good enough until the He-177B enters service.
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- #27
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
No doubt that the He177B was far superior, but it wouldn't be ready under any circumstances until 1941 at very best. That's assuming that the He177B and not A was developed directly without any two propellor nonsense. The FW200 was only decent enough for reconnaissance only, but it was totally inadequate as a bomber because of its structural problems. In that sense the Ju89 would be far superior, as it could hold more fuel AND bombs.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Now come on Dave.....seriously?
Not only is there the 'tradition' expertise of modern heavy European arms manufacture practically since modern arms started being made in Europe but the number of clandestine efforts to keep Germany abrest of on-going developments (both at home abroad) is too well documented for this claim to go unchallenged.
They absolutely were not "starting munitions production almost from scratch during 1935".
It's nothing like a genuine case of 'starting munitions production almost from scratch' if a country like, say, the Republic of Ireland had begun making munitions.
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
Why can't Germany make do with Fw-200s and/or seaplanes until 1941?
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- #30
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
If all they wanted to do was perform recon work for the Uboats without any aerial attacks they very well could, assuming the He177 would be ready for operations in 1941. The problem is that the Uboats are inadequate for the task at hand and it needs some aerial bombing supplementation. The FW200 was unable to handle the weight of bombs and frequently broke up on landing or during maneuvers over water, killing the crews. Also they have very low serviceability that was only partly to do with problems of carrying bombs.
Now seaplanes had their own issues as well. The Do26 was unable to carry bombs for one. The BV138 had much lower range than the Do26 (about 1/3rd less than wikipedia states as well) and could carry limited numbers of bombs, which reduced the range even further. The Do26 is by far the best pure recon aircraft because of its range and reliability, but couldn't carry ordnance. The BV138 had advantages as far as versatility, but as a jack of all trades, it was a master of none.
Frankly a FW200 that could carry bombs without trouble and had somewhat better range would be ideal. The closest aircraft would have been the Ju89 by 1940 and further development would have only made it better. The He177 requires so many things to go right with it to be ready for action by mid-1941, which incidentally is long after it is needed for fighting Britain, that it would require multiple what ifs IMHO.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
1940 Luftwaffe was inadequate for the task at hand too. Nothing Germany can do about that if they wait until 1935 to start rearmament. It takes time to build a military-industrial complex from scratch.
Shortround6
Major General
Please, this 1935 date belongs in the greatest myths category. The Germans had built hundreds of military aircraft BEFORE 1935 and built hundreds more during 1935.
The 3rd Deutschland class armored ship is launched in 1934, the 6th modern light cruiser (Nurnberg) is launched in 1934, about 4 modern 1650 ton destroyers were launched in 1934 along with several submarines.
While the MG 34 machine gun may have been first issued in 1935 in had been under design and development for several years.
The "Pak 36" 37mm anti-tank gun was issued in horse drawn form in 1928, the Pak 36 is for the motor drawn carriage, not the ordnance.
The 10.5 cm leFH 18 started design and development in 1929/30.
The Panzer I was in production in 1934 (although not many).
Germany did NOT start from scratch in 1935, they had 2-7 years of planning and preparation (depending on weapon and service) including building factories.
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- #33
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
The Nazis badly mismanaged production in the years 1936-1942, so had a much smaller number of major weapon system than they should have. Plan Z for instance if never attempted could have started Germany's major Uboat program in early 1939, with major results by 1939-1941 when it really mattered. The dive bombing requirement for so many German aircraft AND Udet's incompetence prevented the Ju88 from being introduced at least 6 months early, not to mention the He177 or in general wider production for many other aircraft. Of course Jeschonnek didn't help either.
My point is that the German economy was most certainly much more capable of producing adequate aircraft AND Uboats if production had been better managed and directed. My point with this thread is that one thing is changed: one of the 1 generation German strategic bombers is developed further and utilized in the naval role.
Assuming we were taling about better Uboat production planning, then we don't need a 1st generation strategic bomber for naval recon, nor the He177. The FW200 and seaplanes without bombs alone would be enough presuming production was higher for these aircraft, as they would just let the increased numbers of Uboats do the destroying. By 1941 the numbers would be pretty damaging to Britain, which, if combined by a better bombing offensive directed against critical targets like Liverpool would potentially have been fatal to Britain.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Precisely Shortround6.
Then there are the numerous 'outsourced' arms R&D manufacturing companies operating abroad by which Germany got around the Versailles requirements.
Not to mention an existing body of ability expertise in the mass production of heavy, medium light muntions. It is absurd to try to dismiss this as of no consequence and worthless.
They absolutely did not start from scratch.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Indeed, so badly mismanaged that the German economy was bust in 1939 they needed war so as to loot defeated nations to continue funding themselves.
In that sort of situation it is hard to sustain (nevermind devise) good planning, hand to mouth economics is rarely a good basis to start from.
As for long range naval reconn I am always surprised that the Fw200 managed what it did given the flaws.....and that those flaws continued for so long.
There's a quote from Admiral Lahs, writing to Milch (1.11.42) where he says, regarding the Ju89 Do19 "had they been properly developed, both types would have been superior to all the English Amerrican long range bombers".
(I bet Milch was thrilled, always helpful that sort of hindsight too late jibing)
I guess that at the very least this shows that at some in Germany at the time (connected to the German navy) liked what they had seen in them rated the potential of both those aircraft.
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- #36
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Overy's books on the subject indicate that Germany wasn't 'broke' in 1939 and could continue on without war without collapsing. They would have had a harder time purchasing raw materials abroad, which was Germany's achilles heel, as much of the metals they needed for their war industries were only available abroad, which was one of the major reasons for going to war in the first place. It was the lack of foreign exchange that would be a problem, but as I mentioned Overy has published enough peer-reviewed articles in history journals to call this thesis into question; he states that the foreign exchange situation was tightening, but not critical enough to cause the German economy real troubles especially as the barter system was in place with many of Germany's suppliers, though Germany was falling behind in payments. The war in Poland had less to do with looting to prop up the economy and more to do with getting the German military experience in combat (which Hitler wanted in 1938 with Czechoslovakia) and getting access to the raw materials in the Teschen/Upper Silesia area plus Polish farmland and settler territories for Hitler's colonists. Also the access to Polish slave labor was certainly a significant reason as well (lots of farm labor there, plus some factory labor as well, freeing up more German for the military).
As to the Lah's quote, I've heard that it was Milch that made that statement...maybe he was just repeating Lahs.
It also makes an interesting point about the potential of these aircraft, but by 1942 the HE177 should have been operational and would have been far superior to anything the Allies fielded until the Lancaster got some of its engine upgrades and the B29 showed up. Of course by 1940 the Ju89 (which was the superior aircraft in the opinion of the LW at the time) would have been better than anything the allies fielded.
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Gixxerman
Senior Airman
The lack of foreign currency is a huge issue to a nation lacking many raw materials.
How about we agree that even if Germany wasn't technically broke it was in no shape to embark on a major war (and I'd include financially as well as materially in that).
However you slice it the outlook was things were going downhill economically, not improving.
The gambler gambled.
Germany lost, almost everything.
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- #39
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
I think history showed that Germany was capable of fighting a major world war and winning it if it had been better led. Technically Germany was getting ready for a war in 1941-2, which is partly the reason why production started rapidly expanding at that point, as all of their pre-war capital projects were being completed around that time, but not exclusively.
By 1942 the economy was finally centralized under one bureaucracy, so production could be efficiently managed and the dead wood starting getting worked out (literally in the case of Udet), which if this process had started in 1938-9 the major production boost could have started then instead of 1942.
Also Germany wasn't lacking foreign exchange, but it was rationing it more. This of course was somewhat offset by the autarky plans of the 1936 4 year plan starting to pay off in 1939, which meant that less foreign exchange was needed and every year after 1939 would require less and less foreign purchasing.
If the world war didn't start with the invasion of Poland, then Germany would have needed even less foreign exchange and would have more material to trade internationally, further easing the finance situation.
I just don't think that German economically was headed down hill from 1939 with or without war; Germany's #1 problem was poor management of its economy, not structural problems per se.
The Messerschmitt Bf-165 jealously killed off by Ernst Udet in 1937 after the death of General Wever.
As underpowered as this aircraft was with four Jumo 210 engines of just 681hp each (used on the Ju-87A Stuka and Bf109 prototypes) it had sufficient range to reach New York from Brest France (6,000km) and back, delivering a 1,000kg bomb load. Willy Messerscmitt in 1937 carefully staged an accidental encounter between Hitler and the Bf-165 mock-up during a visit by Hitler to the Messerschmitt Bf109 factory. When asked by Hitler what the bomber's top speed was (320kt) Hitler scoffed that it needed to be faster than the fighters, yet most contemporary German bombers could barely manage half the same speed. Messerschmitt objected that its speed was limited by the inadequate power plants available to him, thus had he been able to do so would have wished to re-engine the Bf-165 with the same Daimler Benz DB601 engines employed by the Bf109. Had this occurred it would have led either to greater range or bomb loads.
Willi Messerschmitt disguised this private pre-war venture as a proposal for a banana freighter able to fly fruit non stop from Brazil to Germany thus it was known as the Bananaflugzeug. It was also contemporary with the He116A developed for a Deutsch Luft Hansa competition for an airliner able to fly non-stop over the Pamir mountains to Japan.
The He116 (looking like an He-111 with four engines) was even more underpowered than the Bf-165 with just four 244hp Hirth engines, yet proved capable of the intended mission to Japan.
Had Germany entered WWII with a few squadrons of Bf-165 rather than He-111 then the Battle of Britain could have had an entirely different outcome owing to their high speed and ability to operate up to 6,500m. As a naval recon aircraft it could have covered both seaboards of the Atlantic with huge growth potential as engines became available. In appearance it resembled a beefy four engined Hampden bomber.
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