Which country designed the best engines for WWII? (2 Viewers)

[Bretoal2]

La Cuadra never built aircraft engines.
Hispano-Suiza is based in Barcelona.

From Emmanuel Lage, by the armistice (1918), total production of Hispano-Suiza V-8 engines for the Allies reached a staggering total of 49,893 units, including 35,189 manufactured in France, 8,976 in the United States, 3,050 in Great Britain, 2 566 in Italy and 112 in Spain.

In 1920, owing to some tax problems, Hispano-Suiza became a french company "Société Française Hispano-Suiza" and the W and V-12 engines development and production was made at Bois-Colombes near Paris, as were all 1915-1918 versions of the famous V-8.

For the record, the Soviet Klimov M-100 to VK-108 series which derived with licenses from the Hispano-Suiza 12 Y (and without licence from the 12 Z...), was produced in more than 100,000 units.

 

[tomo pauk]

(and without licence from the 12 Z...),

Any good source to back this up?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Shipping fees were included in Lend-Lease. Pre war the Australians found the round trip freight charges for 40 Avro Ansons Chartered by the RAAF were expected to be 45,000 pounds, with the Australian version of the pound worth about 75% of the British pound. The pre war RAAF order for 50 Hudsons plus some fittings plus 12 spare engines plus freight $4,912,300 of which $163,230 was freight, the engines were $15,000 each. Additional "Appendix A" equipment from Britain was 90,000 pounds plus 9,000 pounds freight.

As of 31 May 1941 monetary amount for spare engines per aircraft in pounds was 1,750 Lancaster or Halifax, 450 Spitfire V or VI, Mosquito, 600 Spitfire IV. Spare engine cost is NOT for one new engine, rather an allowance for 1 spare engine per X new aircraft, the cost of the spare engines ordered divided by the number of aircraft in the order. It meant 850 Spitfire fighters with spare engines cost 9,950 pounds each, 150 of the reconnaissance version 11,100 pounds each. The Mosquito order 18,950 pounds each, the Lancasters 43,150 pounds (Armstrong Whitworth) 45,350 pounds (MetroVic), Stirling 52,300 pounds, Wellington 27,100 pounds. (Warwick engine allowance 2,000, Stirling 2,500 pounds)

As a comment on different manufacturers and order sizes, Sunderland without spares, Short 50 aircraft 52,100 pounds, 25 from Short and Harland 60,100 pounds each.

British Archives AIR 20/1981 has the Hurricane at approximately 8,000 pounds each in April 1942, 21,000 pounds for a Beaufighter, and the Kittyhawk price, including freight from the US, as approximately 15,500 pounds, the Airacobra 16,700 pounds and Havoc 39,500 pounds.

Pre war 1 Spitfire plus spare Merlin to France, 16,500 pounds, price quoted for 15 Spitfires for Turkey 13,000 pounds each, the ones sent in 1940 were priced at 11,700 pounds.

 

[Bretoal2]

Any good source to back this up?

Already discussed here. See VK 107 thread(s)

 

[ThomasP]

Huh . . . I missed this thread until today. Good thread.

 

[MiTasol]

I too had missed Klimov VK-107 - help needed. Thanks for the heads up.

It is an old thread and Baball, and probably others, has/have since provided manuals for the engine which makes it easier to understand how it all worked. That Klimov definitely looks like an overdeveloped ww1 engine rather than a late 30s on engine.

 

[Elvis]

Except, if I am not mistaken, the Hispano Suiza V-12s originated in France.

The company was fouded in Paris during the late 1890's, under the name "La Cuadra", but shortly afterwards, La Cuadra hired a Swiss engineer and the company moved to Spain and changed the company's name to "Hispano-Suiza" (Spanish-Swiss).

And there was a a luxury car subsidiary in France which, from the mid 1920s, operated largely independently.

It was that company that made the V-12s of the 1930s.

It was also from them that the British acquired the licence to build the 20mm HS440 cannon.

The Hispano company was into all sorts of things, and that may have been part of the problem.

There were subsidiaries in both Spain and France and other places. Marc Birkigt liked to keep at least a piece of some of the companies that got spun off or got licenses.

There were not only the motor cars but trucks and buses and few gasoline engine powered rail cars. Hispano in Spain also built airplanes. They often did not duplicate what was going in Spain and what was going on in France but they often over lapped.

Birkigt had also designed a lot of the machinery that was used to manufacture the aircraft engines, at least in the Spanish and French Factories. There were about 50,000 of the V-8 WW I engines built in total by a number of different companies (including Wright in the US).

There is no doubt the man was a genius, but he may have been a little too controlling and did not surround himself with enough good men. Not saying he didn't pick good men. Just that many things were getting more complicated with each passing year getting more power and more reliability was getting harder. You needed more good men just to keep up. With the H-S company going in so many different directions things may have been hard. With the world wide depression followed by the Spain civil war and some relocations staying in business at all was more than some companies managed.

From Emmanuel Lage, by the armistice (1918), total production of Hispano-Suiza V-8 engines for the Allies reached a staggering total of 49,893 units, including 35,189 manufactured in France, 8,976 in the United States, 3,050 in Great Britain, 2 566 in Italy and 112 in Spain.

In 1920, owing to some tax problems, Hispano-Suiza became a french company "Société Française Hispano-Suiza" and the W and V-12 engines development and production was made at Bois-Colombes near Paris, as were all 1915-1918 versions of the famous V-8.

For the record, the Soviet Klimov M-100 to VK-108 series which derived with licenses from the Hispano-Suiza 12 Y (and without licence from the 12 Z...), was produced in more than 100,000 units.

...oopsy, did I do that?

 

[SaparotRob]

Hispano-Suizas are made by elves living in a hollow tree and there's no factory.

 

[Elvis]

Hispano-Suizas are made by elves living in a hollow tree and there's no factory.

SaparotRob wins the internet with that one.

 

[SaparotRob]

With a tip of the tin foil cap to the good folks at Keebler.

 

[Bretoal2]

I too had missed Klimov VK-107 - help needed. Thanks for the heads up.

It is an old thread and Baball, and probably others, has/have since provided manuals for the engine which makes it easier to understand how it all worked. That Klimov definitely looks like an overdeveloped ww1 engine rather than a late 30s on engine.

Yes. Thanks to Baball, we can have this sectional view of a VK-107 cylinder, showing the very, very strange arrangement for the two exhaust valves (actuated by a single cam and a "T" plunger).

From the same document, timing diagram is :

- Inlet, fresh air : opens 76° BTC, closes 64° ABC
- Inlet, carbureted air : opens 28° BTC, closes 81° ABC
- Exhaust, opens 60° ABC and closes 18° BTC

 

[Frank Stewart]

I voted England, mainly for the Merlin.
In my view it was the most successful engine, running in 39 and developed until 45 with an incredible development. Other Countries had great engines, but the Merlin has powered everything and was always on top of performances.

You should read more. Particularly the R-R Merlin Vs Allison V-1710 debates!

 

[GrauGeist]

You should read more. Particularly the R-R Merlin Vs Allison V-1710 debates!

While the Allison and Daimler-Benz engines were close contenders, the Merlin was at the head of the class.

I have come to this conclusion, because I read more...

 

[Elvis]

You guys all menton all these V12's and Radials, and you're not wrong, but in my eyes, the best engine was the little Continental 0-170. The engine that powered all those Grasshoppers that were used during the war.
Only 65 HP, but they literally never fail. Always starts, always gets you out there, but better yet, always gets you home...because, if you can't rely on any engine's ability to run, what good is it?

 

[GrauGeist]

Lycoming also provided engines for observation aircraft, like the J-3.

They also built a monster radial, the XR-7755, but it was developed too late to enter service.

 

[Bretoal2]

Allison V-1710 was the best engine.
Rolls-Royce Merlin was the only one.

 

[Elvis]

Lycoming also provided engines for observation aircraft, like the J-3.

They also built a monster radial, the XR-7755, but it was developed too late to enter service.

The L-4, was originally supposed to be powered by the 3 cylinder LaNappe Papoose but Piper wasn't having any of it, so what are you saying?

 

[GrauGeist]

The L-4, was originally supposed to be powered by the 3 cylinder LaNappe Papoose but Piper wasn't having any of it, so what are you saying?

What I am saying, is that Lycoming produced the O-145 H-4 engine that was installed in the Piper O-59/L-4/NE-1 and J-5 as well as the Taylorcraft O-57 and Aeronca O-58/L-3.

As far as the Lenape 3-cyl. radial - it was proposed but very few were ever installed under the J-3P model.
The vast majority of the J-3 models used Franklin, Continental and Lycoming 4-cyl. engines.

 

[Yew Staff]

I would nominate (dont take this seriously) the soviet radial M-82f engine....
it has a very unique feature as it can run its 1750hp WEP mode for an unlimited amount of time (funny...the Yanks/Brits managed allowed only 5min for ~same amount of HP in their Packard/Merlin) while increasing!!! overhaul time from 100 to 150h (at least according to the soviet army air force chief engineer ) ....this must then probably the bear aero-engine of all times

 

[Elvis]

What I am saying, is that Lycoming produced the O-145 H-4 engine that was installed in the Piper O-59/L-4/NE-1 and J-5 as well as the Taylorcraft O-57 and Aeronca O-58/L-3.

As far as the Lenape 3-cyl. radial - it was proposed but very few were ever installed under the J-3P model.
The vast majority of the J-3 models used Franklin, Continental and Lycoming 4-cyl. engines.

The L-19 was powered by a 470 flat six and The Stinson L-1 was powered by an R-680...but what does any of this have to do with the Continental 0-170 I mentioned?
If you have a fave that's different, that's fine, please state it, but why are you connecting it to my post?