Which fighters were "thick skinned?"

Soren · Apr 17, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
I was told this by a live Spitfire pilot just before I climbed up and got into the cockpit at an airshow.

RG I was told the same by some aircraft mechanics working on one, but this was only on old conserved Spit's, as the owners would like them to stay this way ! There was no risk for damage as long as you didnt start jumping on the wing (Wich most probably wont do )

And look at the pic you've posted... NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE STANDING ON THE WING! All of them are being careful to distribute their weight so as not to damage it.

RG offcourse their not standing on the wing, why would they ? The wing is slanted and theres nothing to hold onto out there, so standing up would be very difficult and the risk of falling great. Also why strain yourself by standing up when you can lie down and do the work ?

And what do you see them wearing on their feet?

Three of them clearly wear shoes.

Anonymous · Apr 17, 2005

There is film of P-47 crews walking on the wing in boots. You could not do this on a P-51, Spitfire, or FW.

On that picture of the Spitfire armorer's, clearly the two on the left are barefoot, the next one over we cannot tell, the next one appears to be wearing tennis shoes or something similar but this might be a trick of the light, and the one on the far right is barefoot.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 17, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
There is film of P-47 crews walking on the wing in boots. You could not do this on a P-51, Spitfire, or FW.

I've seen P-51s at Mojave and their wings are quite robust - now in todays terms I wouldn't recommend doing that to an airplane worth almost a million bucks!

For the most part, you could probably get away walking on the wing of any metal WWII aircraft as long as you walk along the spar area and don't jump on the bloody thing! :grab:

Soren · Apr 17, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
There is film of P-47 crews walking on the wing in boots. You could not do this on a P-51, Spitfire, or FW.

Who in gods name told you this rubbish ?

On that picture of the Spitfire armorer's, clearly the two on the left are barefoot, the next one over we cannot tell, the next one appears to be wearing tennis shoes or something similar but this might be a trick of the light, and the one on the far right is barefoot.

The two on the right "look like" they are barefoot, and the one next to them is sitting on his knees and we can't see his feet. The two on the right are clearly wearing shoes !

Btw whats with the "Tennis shoes in WW2" ?

FLYBOYJ · Apr 17, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:

Soren said:

RG_Lunatic said:

I can see no markings on those planes. But the area where a person could step is very clear. On the Sptifire its the inner wing root panel, and its even deliniated by a sheetmetal line. On the FW, its less apparant but its behind and inside of the MG151 bulge.

Click to expand...

RG that simply just isnt true.

Both the Spit and 109's wings could be walked on without sustaining ANY damage AT ALL ! And I have no clue who gave you your current idea about the Spit and 109's wings.

Click to expand...

I was told this by a live Spitfire pilot just before I climbed up and got into the cockpit at an airshow.

And look at the pic you've posted... NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE STANDING ON THE WING! All of them are being careful to distribute their weight so as not to damage it. And what do you see them wearing on their feet?

Click to expand...

Folks I think I could tell you that during the war years the ground crews (especially the armourers) were careful not to step on weak areas of a fighters wings which were usually the upper surfaces of the flap bays and the ailerons, especially if they were fabric. The one thing those guys wanted to do was to get the aircraft armed and fueled ASAP and move on the the next aircraft, if they caused some scraped paint or a little dent, so be it!

If you walked or jumped on one of those "weak" areas are you going to hurt the airplane? - probably not, at least not right away.

I worked around a lot of post WWII jets (F-86, T-33, L-29 39) and although these aircraft are a little more robust than most of your typical WWII aircraft, as a maintainer you develop a "plan" on how to get up on the surfaces of the plane without hurting it. You'll see guys jump up on a wing"Butt first" on the leading edge and slide themselves on to the stronger portion of the wings so the aircraft could be fueled or fixed. If the aircraft was totally restored, I would wear "footies" (canvas socks), or no shoes, but this is more the exception than the rule.

Over all, two or 3 guys standing on the wing of a spitfire or 190 shouldn't hurt it if the ground crew was careful. During the war years, unless the ground crew put their foot though the wing, they weren't going to care about small dents and scratches, after all depending on the theater and timeframe during the war, chances are the aircraft they were working on wasn't coming back! I think once in flight during a combat situation, that aircraft was going to see a lot more abuse!

Anonymous · Apr 17, 2005

The P-51's wings were very fragile when it comes to thier aerodynamic properties. They were only expected to exhibit laminar flow properties through about the first 50 hours of flight time. Great care not to distort the surface was recommended.

Flyboy, my point is that the P-47 required no special care. They would have a man out on the wing, way out about 6 feet from the tip, to direct the plane into position to takeoff. When it was time for him to jump down, he'd stand up and trot over to the back of the wing root and slide off. And they were in combat boots. The P-47 is said to have had "double thick" skinning, though I've not been able to specifically confirm that it was indeed twice as thick as other US fighters. I suspect it was noticably thicker, but not twice as thick.

I think if you can nab the full version of the P-47 "in color" film you will see the flight crews doing what I've noted above.

=S=

Lunatic

FLYBOYJ · Apr 17, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
The P-51's wings were very fragile when it comes to thier aerodynamic properties. They were only expected to exhibit laminar flow properties through about the first 50 hours of flight time. Great care not to distort the surface was recommended.

Flyboy, my point is that the P-47 required no special care. They would have a man out on the wing, way out about 6 feet from the tip, to direct the plane into position to takeoff. When it was time for him to jump down, he'd stand up and trot over to the back of the wing root and slide off. And they were in combat boots. The P-47 is said to have had "double thick" skinning, though I've not been able to specifically confirm that it was indeed twice as thick as other US fighters. I suspect it was noticably thicker, but not twice as thick.

I think if you can nab the full version of the P-47 "in color" film you will see the flight crews doing what I've noted above.

=S=

Lunatic

Yes - I totally understand what you're saying. With the Mustang as you said with its laminar wing, I'm sure when it first entered service this was closely watched, but say by Korea, the ground pounders were probably stomping all over those wings! Sometimes maitainers are their own worse enemys!

Anonymous · Apr 17, 2005

By Korea none of the P-51's had any laminar flow at all. Under perfect condtions the characteristic could last as much as 200 flight hours, but 50 was the reasonable expectation, and many did not hold it even that long. Since the life expectancy of a fighter in combat was 20-30 hours, it was not considered an issue.

=S=

Lunatic

FLYBOYJ · Apr 17, 2005

Yep - I'm with you, I got my boots on right now!

Soren · Apr 18, 2005

And I repeat: Both the Spit, 109 and 190's wings could be walked on (Boots or not) without sustaining ANY damage AT ALL !

KraziKanuK · Apr 18, 2005

Now this is a tough wing.

mosquitoman · Apr 18, 2005

It was quite a thick wing- that's why the Tiffie was no good at altitude

the lancaster kicks ass · Apr 18, 2005

but brilliant at lower altitudes.........

but that pic with all the guys on the wing is amazing!!

FLYBOYJ · Apr 18, 2005

If you seen how wing spars are made (machined and heat treated) you'll realize that airplanes are a lot tougher than you think!

Anonymous · Apr 18, 2005

Soren said:
And I repeat: Both the Spit, 109 and 190's wings could be walked on (Boots or not) without sustaining ANY damage AT ALL !

One picture of a guy on a spit wing, carefully posed with his weight upon the spar, is not "proof". All the FW photos are totally irrelevant, the person standing is right at the wing root, or is quite near the root and we cannot see his feet, or in the last pic he's either sitting or kneeling on the wing or he's actually on a ladder or something on the far side of the wing.

Soren · Apr 18, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
One picture of a guy on a spit wing, carefully posed with his weight upon the spar, is not "proof".

RG_Lunatic said:
All the FW photos are totally irrelevant, the person standing is right at the wing root, or is quite near the root and we cannot see his feet, or in the last pic he's either sitting or kneeling on the wing or he's actually on a ladder or something on the far side of the wing.

Ladder ??!!! You must be blind !!

Anonymous · Apr 18, 2005

Oh really? Well, I am pretty sure it is you who is "blind". Take a good look Soren:

On first glance, it appears the man is sitting on the wing facing away from the camera. But on closer inspection, it appears he is facing the camera, and leaning on the wing while standing or maybe even sitting on some kind of support that is located on the far side of the wing blocked from our view.

But the point is he is clearly not standing on the wing, so it does not really matter.

Soren · Apr 18, 2005

RG it is clearly you who is the blind one, and especially because you don't even see it when enlarged !

FLYBOYJ · Apr 18, 2005

OK guys - next week I'm going to be in California, at Mojave airport and at Gillespie Airfield for an airshow (Apr. 28-May 1). Both places are a warbird environment rich. There will definitely be a Mustang at at least one these places, maybe a Spit, possibly a P-47. Because I'll be an airshow participant, I should be able to get a real close look at these aircraft, providing they are all there. I'll take pictures and let you know what I find out.

=FBJ=

Anonymous · Apr 19, 2005

Soren said:
RG it is clearly you who is the blind one, and especially because you don't even see it when enlarged !

Soren, do you notice that there is a head right in the middle of the red circle you've drawn and marked "leg" ???

Which fighters were "thick skinned?"

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