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- #21
Excellent, thank you - what is the source for this? I'd love to see stats for Commonwealth fighters in general...
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Excellent, thank you - what is the source for this? I'd love to see stats for Commonwealth fighters in general...
- Thread starter
- #22
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
When the Fw190A was first introduced, it was the Typhoon that was able to meet it and best it in a turning fight - this was one of the saving graces of the fledgling Tempest when it was first introduced.
wuzak
Captain
Is this what you meant?
Of course the Spitfire could turn with the 190, it just had trouble keeping up.
This was solved, to a degree, with the LF V, and then the XII in early 1943.
The IX could keep up, or better, with a 190 at most altitudes, but not so much at the low altitudes used in the fighter-bomber raids.
I think that all the story of Tornado-Typhoon-Tempest is a part of the chess game played between RAF and Luftwaffe.
In 1936 RLM started to develop He-177. Knowing that it could be dangerous, as He-177 could reach England from German bases, RAF in 1937 asked in a hurry for something to deal with, that is an interceptor armed with twelve 0.303 or four cannons (at least), a specification that lead to Tornado.
Fortunately for U.K. and for the World, it was clear that He 177 was a failure from the start, as it was clear that Nazi Germany had not the industrial capabilities to build and to equip huge fleets of four engined bombers ( Intelligence Services are sometimes useful), so a single engine interceptor armed with four cannons had a low priority from the end of the BoB. Mostly because the engines needed for that planes were experimenting theeting problems, RAF concluded that a role of bomber destroyer could be assigned to Beaufighters.
But in 1943 spooks started to spead rumors of V-1, and the need for an interceptor with a flash acceleration arose… and so on.
In 1936 RLM started to develop He-177. Knowing that it could be dangerous, as He-177 could reach England from German bases, RAF in 1937 asked in a hurry for something to deal with, that is an interceptor armed with twelve 0.303 or four cannons (at least), a specification that lead to Tornado.
Fortunately for U.K. and for the World, it was clear that He 177 was a failure from the start, as it was clear that Nazi Germany had not the industrial capabilities to build and to equip huge fleets of four engined bombers ( Intelligence Services are sometimes useful), so a single engine interceptor armed with four cannons had a low priority from the end of the BoB. Mostly because the engines needed for that planes were experimenting theeting problems, RAF concluded that a role of bomber destroyer could be assigned to Beaufighters.
But in 1943 spooks started to spead rumors of V-1, and the need for an interceptor with a flash acceleration arose… and so on.
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The Typhoon and Tempest Story by Thomas/Shores. It lists claims and losses for both.
The standing patrols were required because the Jabos, 190s and 109s, came in so low radar couldn't pick them up.
With 1940s RADAR a modern Eurofighter couldnt prevent a JABO unless already in the air or at least on the end of the runway with pilot sat in and engines running, at 300Mph it takes 4 minutes to cross the channel at Dover.
Shortround6
Major General
and 15-20 minutes in many other areas. However unless said runway is close to intended flight path of the JABO it it going to take a number of minutes to reach it.
Wiki says the Channel is about 350 miles long and about 150 miles wide at the widest, so you need a fair number of planes parked with engines running spread out along the length even if they aren't in the air.
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
Okay you insisted on the P-40 in the ETO , where it did little. It was considered inferior to Axis fighters from Day One, if superior to the Hurricane at low altitude. It was replaced by later fighters as soon as they became available.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
lmao...actually, I had wrote "Tiffy" but it somehow ended up as "Tempest"!
The miracles of the modern age and autocorrect ensures that there's never a dull moment.
The Typhoon was introduced at a time when the Fw190 had just tipped the balance in favor of the Luftwaffe, putting the RAF at the advantage once again in lower altitude combat.
Considering that the Tiffy's development had been plagued by several issues, it was this ability to counter the Fw190 that was it's saving grace.
By 1943, the newer marks of the Spitfire were more than enough for Luftwaffe, leaving the Typhoon to evolve into a master of ground attack.
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- #34
Any chance we could make this a poll?
I didn't think of it until after I stared the thread, then I looked and couldn't see how to do it. Do you know how?
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- #35
Seems reasonable. But just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, a substantial number of the 592 US P-40 claims in the Med were also for Fw 190s, the latter being used extensively as Jabos for example in the Anzio landings and against the besieged beachhead all in early 1944. 79th FG claimed a few dozen Fw 190s at that time at least, although from reviewing Shores MAW volume IV some of those look like they were actually misidentified Bf 109s.
Were most of the 250 Tiffy claims - aside from V-1s and Me 262s, against FWs?
Overall, just looking at numbers, I know this won't be a popular statement but I think the P-40F looks a little better so far.
2000 P-40 F and L produced, with 592 US claims plus about another 50 by two RAF (260 RAF and 3 RAAF) squadrons operating them as Kittyhawk IIs. I don't know how many were claimed by the 1 squadron flying them in the Pacific but probably no more than a couple of dozen more. But lets say roughly 650 claims mostly between August 1942 and August 1943, with a trickle of a few more right up to September 1944. Operationally US P-40F units played a major role in defeating the Axis air forces in Tunisia, in capturing Pantelleria (it was actually an unsanctioned drop of "surrender to the 325th FG" note dropped on the island that seemed to induce the final surrender) the invasion of Sicily and Italy, and the survival of the Anzio beach-head. Not even talking about important victories by other P-40 types like at Milne Bay the Kokoda trail.
3000 Tiffys produced, 250 claims between 1941 and 1945, of which 30 were V-1s (or were those over?) and 3 for Me 262s. Lots of Fw 190s in the number which they helped deter from dominating the English Channel and terrorizing Southern England with Jabo raids.
Typhoon definitely has the edge in raw performance but isn't as maneuverable and suffers serious structural problems. Almost the opposite of the P-40 in that sense as P-40s were liked by pilots because they had a high survival rate. P-40s high dive speed is what enabled it to catch and destroy fast flying aircraft like Fw 190s, Bf 109G-6 and MC 205s. Typhoon is also more heavily armed with four big cannon, carries a heavier bomb and rocket load and I suspect can manage a higher combat speed while carrying air to ground ordinance. So once the tail was fixed etc. it was probably a better ground attack aircraft than a P-40, though P-40s were considered pretty good at that too.
At the very least though overall, I would say the record of the P-40 compares reasonably well.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Before we compare claims, let's first consider production totals.
Curtiss produced over 13,700 P-40s (of all marks)
Hawker produced a little over 3,300 Typhoons (including sub-variants)
Also the operational scope (and greater numbers) of the P-40 will at first show a far superior number of air victories in favor of the P-40, especially since the P-40 operated in every theater of the war where the Typhoon in it's smaller numbers was limited to north-western Europe.
Curtiss produced over 13,700 P-40s (of all marks)
Hawker produced a little over 3,300 Typhoons (including sub-variants)
Also the operational scope (and greater numbers) of the P-40 will at first show a far superior number of air victories in favor of the P-40, especially since the P-40 operated in every theater of the war where the Typhoon in it's smaller numbers was limited to north-western Europe.
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- #37
Again, I already pointed this out but I'll do so again - Per the thread title I was specifically only comparing Typhoons with the Merlin engined P-40s (P-40 F/ L / Kittyhawk II) of which only 2000 were produced. The ~650 victories I mentioned just above are for that subtype only. Total victory claims for all versions of the P-40 were well over 3,000.
P-40F and L operated almost exclusively in the Med. There was one squadron in the Solomons and the Russians may have gotten a few. But basically one Theater just like with the Typhoon.
So in this specific case, I think it is a fairly close comparison.
Shortround6
Major General
ANd for a good part of 1942-43 the Germans didn't have very many aircraft stationed within reach of the Typhoons in western europe.
Without factoring opportunity (British planes could fly for months without engaging a German plane in NW Europe during this time period) victory counts to determine which is better is a pretty poor metric.
Being able to dive on low altitude JABOs also tends to mask the performance difference. Once the JABO has dropped it's bomb anywhere but on the intended target the "intercepting" fighter has scored a mission kill even if the a victory claim.
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- #39
The issue of attacking Jabos was, I think, similar for both planes. It's certainly easier to attack a low-flying fighter bomber than a high flying fighter so long as your aircraft performs reasonably well down low, which both the Typhoon and P-40F did.
There were also, incidentally, long dry spells for P-40 pilots as well where there was limited Axis opposition in the air, notably most of 1944 after Anzio was over and for several periods in the second half of 1943.
The difference between Jabo raids on southern England and Anzio is the size of the Anzio beachhead and the fact that the raids on England were nuisance raids, they didn't have to take place. Canterbury as a target is less than 20 miles from the sea from north east and south.
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