Which is the better fighter, P-40F or Typhoon?

P-40 or Typhoon


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My take on the Typhoon vs P-40 and Hurricane. All are good planes.
Typhoon did not go through as much of the rugged day to day fighting the P-40 and other Brit fighters did.
It was a moderate improvement over the Hurricane which was kept relevant in Africa with more power and weapons.

The Better fighter was the one that was available all the time !
Had the P-39 and the early Mustangs been used as much.
P-51A would have been another big improvement if implemented.

Logistics, field upgrades and maintenance kept them in the game.
All three used Allison engines. Our pilot training was more robust.
Brits and American used the Merlin.
Typhoon engine would have complicated logistics and maintenance.
Doable with enough trained mechanics.

P-40 flew in every Theater of Operation and often in miserable field conditions.
Placed third or forth number aircraft shot down. (Cannot find the Chart)
Interesting that none of the Russian P-40 shoot downs were added.
Which may have pushed it up to 2nd or 3rd.

Anyone got and data on Russian Air to Air Kills?
 
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My point exactly. Two or three radios, move however many you need for balance up behind the pilot.
 
They seldom if ever got to perform side by side in the same arena, so it's a theoretical discussion that lets every one exercise their scholarly research skills and advocate for their preferred interpretation. "Sci-Fi", if you will.
Cheers,
Wes
Not quite, the P40 did operate for a short while in Europe from bases in England but were quickly replaced by the Mustang or the Typhoon. Which may say something.
 
My point exactly. Two or three radios, move however many you need for balance up behind the pilot.

It may be interesting, but difficult, to track the P-39s radio usage. When the P-39 was designed there was no such thing as IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) equipement.

I don't know what kind of radio they started with but by the time the P-39K and L models were being built it seems they were switching from the SCR274 to the SCR 522. But no mention is made in the manual for the SCR 535 set. When you get to the P-39Q there is both the SCR274N and the SCR 522 are covered as communications radios, The SCR535 is covered as an recognition set with a number of paragraphs about the demolition charge.
The P-39s mentioned carried either the SCR 74N OR the SCR 533, not both. But apparently a P-39 with ether set could be fitted with the SCR535.

It appears that the First plane in the above photos (the one restored in Australia and later sold to Russia) had an SCR274N radio set above the engine. This set used three receivers and two transmitters, each in it's own box, with switches so the pilot could change back and forth between them, each receiver or transmitter only handling one frequency.

The SCR 522 set used 4 frequencies and the pilot could select which frequency with a control box much like an old push button car radio. The SCR 522 was an American copy of a British radio.


I would suggest, but am certainly willing to be proved wrong, that the P-39 only had one radio (using however many channels or frequencies that set had) in the tail.
With the coming of IFF gear either the IFF gear or the communications radio had to go over the engine (with whatever set wasn't over the engine being in the tail?)

you can't add 75-100lbs of radio gear over and above the original radio to the tail and have the CG come out right any more than you can take 70-100lb out of the nose right behind the prop.

You also had to be able to service the radios once they are installed. The old radios were a far cry from even radios of the 1950s. Even on the 4 channel SCR 522 set the pilots manual says that after changing frequencies using the push buttons to give the vacuum tubes (valves) in the new frequency one minute to warm up before trying to use the radio.
 
…..This corresponds to the phase in of the US merlin-engined P-40 units, starting with the 57th FG in June 1942....
Yeah, that would the period with Spitfires with top-cover. I'm not saying the US P-40Fs didn't do good and valuable service in the Desert and NA, but they only got going when they already had Spitfires Vs to cover them. By that point the Commonwealth P-40 units had gone a whole year with the Tomahawk and Kittyhawk, and they knew well that the Curtis just didn't have the altitude performance required. Clive Caldwell was one who stated that they did the best with what they had, but he would have given his right arm for some Spitfires instead of the Kittyhawks.

…..The arrival of the Yanks also coincided with three* important Tactical and Operational changes to DAF missions - first and foremost, to the use of wingmen and "finger four" formations (with assorted variations)….....
Sorry, nothing to do with the USAAF's arrival. Units like 112Sq were already flying in a section of three pairs, the idea being this meant a section meeting a schwarm would out-number the Germans. Back in the UK, the finger-four had been standard for Fighter Command for over a year, and was already being taught to the RAF pilots arriving in the Med by OTUs in the UK. But, what that has to do with the quality of the P-40 vs the Typhoon is moot - at the time the Typhoon was being used in the ETO as a low-level interceptor and for fighter sweeps. The Duxford Typhoon Wing flew their first Circus on 20th June 1942. In September 1942 the Typhoon was chosen as the best available option for intercepting the tip-and-run Jabos over the Channel. No-one said "Hey, let's ask the Yanks to send some P-40Fs."

And again, nothing to do with the P-40F vs the Typhoon. If the Typhons had been there they would simply have done the escort job better because they were faster and had a better operational ceiling and - at that point in the War - were better armed. In 1942 the RAF units flying Kittyhawks were cursing their Browning .50s for constant jamming under Gs. Even the Hispano II cannon in the Typhoons were operating more reliably. No2 and 5 SAAF pilots even asked if they could go back to their Tomahawks during this period and said they didn't want Kittyhawks, even the Merlin-engined P-40F!

…..JG 27 ….JG 77 ….JG 2 …. JG 53....
Again, by the time the Yanks got to tangle with them they had Spitfires and P-38s flying top-cover, which took away the Bf109F/G's main advantage. By 1943, RAF units were switching from the Kittyhawks to Spitfire Vs as fast as possible, as were the USAAF units in theatre, because the P-40F wasn't up to the job of air superiority fighter. By 1943 the P-40 was a bomber in the Med and unheard of in the UK. Meanwhile, the RAF was busily equipping more and more UK-based squadrons with Typhoons.

As an aside, you seem to be a bit eager to engage in some Brit vs. Yank debating.....
No, just amused by the illogic of your arguments for considering the P-40F better than the Typhoon.

…..The larger point we are addressing here is your claim that the air opposition was weak and worn out by the time the Americans got involved in the war.....
The quality of Luftwaffe units peaked during the Battle of Britain. Luftwaffe units had started having problems with crew replacements by August 1940. They had barely recovered in June 1941 when they had to go into the meat-grinder of Russia. Whilst the experten were still very dangerous all War, especially whilst they had superior fighters, the average Luftwaffe pilot declined in quality post-1940. By the time the 57th FG started flying the first USAAF Warhawk operations in the Desert in October 1942, that training problem had already taken a deep bite out of the quality of the Luftwaffe.

…..and they definitely needed the P-40....
No, they had to use the P-40 because they simply did not have enough better fighters available. The RAF only originally sent the Tomahawk to the Med in 1941 because they thought they would only being meeting Italian fighters like the Fiat CR42 and G50. They had already decided the P-40 was unsuitable for combat against the Bf109E, let alone the F. They had to upgrade to the Kittyhawk because they had to replace the Tomahawk quickly with something available.

The biggest problem with the P-40F was it was little more than a P-36 with a Merlin 28, just as the P-40B/C was just a P-36 with an Allison V-1710. The P-36 was already falling behind European fighters like the Spitfire and ME109 when the XP-40 first flew in 1938. This was recognised by North American Aviation when they were asked to make P-40s by the British Overseas Purchasing Commission in 1940. NAA came up with the Mustang instead. The tragedy is that Ford had turned down the opportunity to make Rolls-Royce Merlins, which meant the first Packard V-1650s weren't available when the NA-73x (which became the P-51A) first flew in 1940. If the Mustang had been built from the start with the Packard Merlin, then the Commonwealth units could have switched from Tomahawks to P-51Bs in 1942. Now, I'd accept an argument that the P-51B was a better fighter than the Typhoon, and definitely far better than a P-40F.
 
Yeah, that would the period with Spitfires with top-cover. I'm not saying the US P-40Fs didn't do good and valuable service in the Desert and NA, but they only got going when they already had Spitfires Vs to cover them.

This sounds nice and logical but is just not factually true. Spitfires, when available, did indeed provide top cover over Allied bases. But there are two problems in the real world with your theory: First, they did not have the range to cover strike missions except to very close targets - this was the main role played by the P-40F in fact - second, there were never enough of them to cover the whole battlefield, which is why again the later model Kittyhawks were used. This is all fairly easy to verify now as we have books like Shores MAW series which lists the aircraft used, and what they were used for, on each given day. Within the DAF late model Kittyhawks (Mk II, IIa and III) were used to fly cover for older Kittyhawk Mk I and Ia, and for Hurricanes.

USAAF units were initially flying with DAF units and flew the same kinds of missions as the Kittyhawk II - escort, fighter sweep and fighter bomber. In the latter case a squadron of P-40s would fly cover for another squadron carrying bombs. Later, they flew escort for US Medium bombers, B-25s and B-26s, as well as for RAF Baltimores and Bostons.

Sorry, nothing to do with the USAAF's arrival. Units like 112Sq were already flying in a section of three pairs, the idea being this meant a section meeting a schwarm would out-

I said it coincided, I didn't say it "had to do with". The fact is the USAAF units were already flying 'finger four' formations of two pairs. The Germans commented on this. As I said already, the DAF seemed to adopt this strategy (in different variations) at just about this same time, i.e. third quarter of 1942. Why they didn't adopt it before (in the Med) is a mystery to me, and to some of the pilots on both sides. I believe it cost a lot of lives.


How well the Typhoon theoretically would have done is speculation since they weren't used. My guess is that they would not have fared well against Bf 109s due to their poor maneuverability. P-38s had a similar problem / limitation. As for the 2 and 5 SAAF - they couldn't have gotten Kittyhawk II's even if they had wanted them since they always got the last planes available (which is why they were still flying Tomahawks in 1943). The Kittys went to the elite 260 RAF and 3 RAAF, who had two of the best records in the Med.

All fighters with wing guns had problems with stoppages, Spit V's in the Med certainly did as did P-47s when they arrived and Mustangs after that. The issues with the Kittyhawks were to a large extent (though not completely) resolved by the P-40F, K, L and M models.

Again, by the time the Yanks got to tangle with them they had Spitfires and P-38s flying top-cover, which took away the Bf109F/G's main advantage. By 1943, RAF units were switching

Once again, factually incorrect. The Spitfires simply did not have the range to fly escort in most of the strike missions over German and Italian airbases which was the new strategy used by the DAF after mid 1942. The P-38s certainly did but when they fought at below 20,000, they tended to get mauled by the Luftwaffe and Italians. One group, the 14th Fighter Group, had to be pulled out of combat for a while. After that they were used mainly to escort B-24s at high altitude and often long range.

It was very much the exception, not the rule, that either Spitfires or P-38s were flying top cover for P-40F/L or Kittyhawk IIs

By 1943 the P-40 was a bomber in the Med and unheard of in the UK. Meanwhile, the RAF was busily equipping more and more UK-based squadrons with Typhoons.
Once again, factually incorrect. The 325th Fighter Group was assigned as escorts to the 320h Bombardment group (B-26s)

No, just amused by the illogic of your arguments for considering the P-40F better than the Typhoon.
I'm equally amused by the combination of strident assertiveness with lack of awareness of the basic facts on this topic.

The quality of Luftwaffe units peaked during the Battle of Britain

Ok so you are saying that after 1940 the Luftwaffe was a push-over and victory claims by Allied pilots in the Med were "easy" and should be taken with a grain of salt, is that right?

They had already decided the P-40 was unsuitable for combat against the Bf109E, let alone the F. They had to upgrade to the Kittyhawk because they had to replace the Tomahawk quickly with something available.

And yet even the lowly old Tomahawk could apparently shoot down Bf 109F-4s in fairly large numbers...

S
 
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The Spitfires simply did not have the range to fly escort in most of the strike missions over German and Italian airbases which was the new strategy used by the DAF after mid 1942.

I've never understood why the British were so reluctant to fit internal LR tanks as well as drop tanks to spitfires, the single biggest gripe in every single theatre of operations it was used in was lack of range and not enough of them.
 
They more or less sorted it out, or anyway significantly improved the situation, when the Spit VIII finally arrived, though they came in rather slowly.
 
[QUOTE ="Schweik, post: 1485083, member: 73921"]As an aside, you seem to be a bit eager to engage in some Brit vs. Yank debating, but that is not the goal of this thread[/QUOTE]

No, just amused by the illogic of your arguments for considering the P-40F better than the Typhoon.

I'm equally amused by the combination of strident assertiveness with lack of awareness of the basic facts on this topic.
Let's hear it for divergent narratives of the same historical events. Good thing you guys don't frequent the same pub. If you guys were to settle your differences, it would spoil the entertainment value for the rest of us!
Cheers,
Wes
 
The p38s "providing top cover" you reference ARE a "yank" plane. But really that doesn't matter. Ultimately all the types, the p38, the p40, and the spitfire all had different strengths and weaknesses that complimented each other.
It really would have been alot tougher trying to accomplish the same objectives with only p40s, only Spitfires, or only p38s.
So thank God we had them all there when we needed them.
They were all nescesary.
 
[QUOTE ="Schweik, post: 1485083, member: 73921"]As an aside, you seem to be a bit eager to engage in some Brit vs. Yank debating, but that is not the goal of this thread




Let's hear it for divergent narratives of the same historical events. Good thing you guys don't frequent the same pub. If you guys were to settle your differences, it would spoil the entertainment value for the rest of us!
Cheers,
Wes[/QUOTE]

Within reason. Rehashing the same stuff over and over in the same thread every time some new enthusiast bursts through the door is tedious. At least in the pub you get some grim satisfaction.
 
The tragedy is that Ford had turned down the opportunity to make Rolls-Royce Merlins, which meant the first Packard V-1650s weren't available when the NA-73x (which became the P-51A) first flew in 1940.

This gets brought up a lot but Ford was not a magician. Packard was being talked to about replacing Ford in just a few weeks. The formal contract may not have been signed until Sept of 1940 but Packard had been in possession of most of the drawings that Ford had plus the sample engine for a number of weeks before the formal contract was signed.
 
The RAF only originally sent the Tomahawk to the Med in 1941 because they thought they would only being meeting Italian fighters like the Fiat CR42 and G50
Interesting...

MC.200AS was first operated by 374° Squadriglia, starting April '41.
MC.202 was first operated by 4° Stormo, starting July 1941.
Re.2001 was first operated by 2° (6° Stormo), starting summer 1941.

The RAF wasn't stupid and knew of the types I listed, considering that they had already tangled with these types in various places in the Med prior to the North African campaign.
 

The MC202 came as a nasty surprise to the RAF in Septemer 1941 over Sicilly and Malta, long after the P-40C Tomahawks had been sent to the Desert. The decision to send the P-40s to the Desert was made because the Brits tricked the Italians into letting them test all their frontline fighters in December 1939, on the pretence that they would make an order for a "colonial fighter". Interestingly, the RAF rated the Reggiane RE2000 as the best available Italian fighter, better than the Macchi C200, and even tried to order 300 RE2000s. It's probably good they didn't as the Piaggio engine proved extremely unreliable. However, the RAF concluded from their tests that the Italian manufacturers were hampered by low-powered radial engines, and that the Italians did not have an engine in development that would change that picture in the immediate future. The Reggia Aeronautica had a policy of insisting on radials as they thought them more reliable in colonial conditions and more resistant to combat damage. The Brits concluded that the Hawker Hurricane I would be superior to the Italian fighters and so didn't worry about sending the Tomahawks to the Desert. The Brits had no idea that Macchi would fit the inline DB601 into the Macchi C200 and failed to predict the Luftwaffe sending Bf109s. The Tomahawk did completely out-class all Italian fighters until the arrival of the MC202.
 
So that would be the air bases with Bf109s and Macchi 202s? You did pause to check the range limitations of both those types, right? Oh, no you didn't. The Bf109F/Gs had to be kept close to the battlefront because they were just as short-legged as the Spitfire. The Macchis were actually pulled back because more were destroyed on the ground by the LRDG and SAS than in the air. And hitting the Axis airbases had been a standard tactic looooooooooong before the P-40F arrived in theatre. Ernest "Imshi" Mason became an ace doing exactly that kind of raid on Italian airfields in a Hurricane in 1940-41. Mason died trying the same in a Kittyhawk . The SAAF in particular were doing such raids in Marylands and then Baltimores before the USAAF's arrival.

Bobby Gibbes explained that the altitude advantage of the P-40F lasted exactly one mission. The Bf109s were surprised to find Kittyhawks over 25,000 feet, but the next day they just flew 2000 feet higher and the Kittyhawk IIs could do nothing about it. Given that the Typhoon also had much better range than the Spitfire the point is moot. The Typhoon would have done the escort job just as well if not better than the P-40F, especially as it was faster.

How well the Typhoon theoretically would have done is speculation since they weren't used.
But Typhoons were used as fighters in the Channel Theatre when the P-40F was rejected for that theatre. I have pointed this out numerous times and you are still avoiding that point. You seem to be under the misconception that the P-40F was used in the Desert instead of the Typhoon by choice, whereas history shows the P-40F was replaced as soon as it could be by better aircraft, either Spitfires or Thunderbolts.

Once again, factually incorrect. The Spitfires simply did not have the range to fly escort in most of the strike missions over German and Italian airbases which was the new strategy used by the DAF after mid 1942.
See above. Wasn't a new strategy and the 109s' bases were inside the range of Spitfires.

I'm equally amused by the combination of strident assertiveness with lack of awareness of the basic facts on this topic.
Try reading more widely.

Ok so you are saying that after 1940 the Luftwaffe was a push-over and victory claims by Allied pilots in the Med were "easy" and should be taken with a grain of salt, is that right?
No, I just pointed out that the quality of the average replacement pilot had dropped by 1942. I actually said the experten were deadly all War, especially when they could take advantage of the superior altitude performance of the 109, as they did against the P-40F. You could start here, and do remember that Allied fighter pilots on average had 300-360 hours of flying training before they went operational, even in 1942.

And yet even the lowly old Tomahawk could apparently shoot down Bf 109F-4s in fairly large numbers...
Which is not to say the Typhoon could have done a better job. Considering it was faster, had just as good range, had heavier armament, was as tough if not tougher, and could out-climb the P-40F, I'd say it is patently obvious that the Typhoon would have done a better job.
 
True, but it amuses me that, of all the fighters available, it was the P-40 that got given the Packard-Merlin 28. Maybe a North American Mustang I with a Merlin 28 wouldn't have quite been a P-51B (the P-51B got the Merlin 60-series), but I suspect it would have been a lot better than a P-40F. Heck, I'd even have preferred a P-39D/P-400 with a Merlin 28 over a P-40F!
 

Their job was to protect the German troops from the Allied aircraft, specifically it was to shoot down bombers and fighter-bombers, and more rarely to escort Stukas and other Tactical bombers when the latter were attacking front-line Allied positions (which the Luftwaffe pilots said they hated doing). This required them to be in range of the front lines. Not to be within range of the Allied airbases which they rarely were. Again, this isn't new and I did not come up with this idea, the issue about the Spitfire's range is well known and has been for a long time. The role of the P-40's as escorts is also pretty well established. I'll quote a passage from a German ace on this subject later.


The Bf 109s could always attack from above - quite often they attacked Spitfire V's from above as well. What the DAF pilots needed to change was their Tactics in response to being bounced. The Germans could always use their attack from up high, but if they were limited to only attacking that way, it made it hard to get at the bombers and as the Allies finally adopted effective defensive tactics such as what I've already described upthread (both recently upthread and quite a way back many pages...) the Luftwaffe were less likely to get fighter kills that way either.

The P-40F/L much higher performance ceiling meant that it took longer for Bf 109s to get above them and they couldn't safely fight them (without taking casualties) from there on down to Sea Level. For some reason, prior to mid 1942, RAF were often flying missions including fighter sweeps as low as 6,000 -7,000 feet. Bobby Gibbes has also commented on this as did many of the other DAF and Luftwaffe Aces. When the Merlin engined units came into the Theater, both US and British / Commonwealth, they were able to take a much heavier toll on the German fighters. In most cases without any top cover.


We have also discussed this, I certainly haven't avoided the topic, it's just already been hashed out (and then some). You'll have to forgive me if you come in on page 70 of a long running Thread and start bringing up things that were already debunked several times, and I don't spend a ton of effort digging up all the facts that had previously been posted.

Every WW2 combat aircraft had it's strengths and weaknesses. Some were Strategically significant, some Operational or Tactical in implications. Certain aircraft were generalists within a certain subset of conditions, others were suitable for more niche roles. The Spitfire for example was basically an interceptor. The P-51B on out was ideal as an escort fighter. And so on.

In my opinion the Typhoon had much more of a niche role - being very fast at low level like the P-51A, it was better at attacking or performing recon against an "integrated air defense network" - as in static targets, heavy AA integrated with a communications network, and eventually, radar. The Spitfire was already ideal (or the best available) for defense of the Home Islands which is why the newer types in particular (when they became available) were so jealously hoarded there.

The P-40 was a generalist, within certain limits. It was no good at high altitude and wasn't ideal as an interceptor, but remained suitable for a wide variety of conditions in many different Theaters from it's first introduction to combat through the end of the war. It shot down a lot of enemy aircraft during that time, and blew up a lot of enemy ground troops, tanks, bridges, railcars and shipping. It was used in the Med, in the Pacific from Alaska to Australia, in the CBI, and in Russia mostly as a fighter but also as a fighter bomber. In the Med, the conditions changed from the early days with the Tomahawk in 1941 to the introduction of the Merlin engined variants in mid to late 1942. But generally speaking it was used as an air superiority fighter through that entire period.

In Australia, even though it really wasn't good for the job, it had a better record as an interceptor than the Spit V did, for whatever combination of reasons.

See above. Wasn't a new strategy and the 109s' bases were inside the range of Spitfires.

Actually, in most cases they were not. The battle-lines fluctuated a lot during the war so sometimes Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica bases were close enough for Spitfires to join strike missions, but most often they were too far away.

Try reading more widely.

Try reading through the thread before you make a misguided attempt to pwn it.


The fact that you think the outcomes of air combat would be obvious 76 years ago seems a bit dubious to me...
 
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