Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
Which Model P-40? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jennison
- Start date
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Wish I could claim it.You famous now. Fat Finger Syndrome - Google Search
BTW My definition was for "reverenge".
MiTasol
Major
I just browsed my P-40 blueprint microfilm and it appears what you have is a part number 87-61-522 instrument board.
But then it gets interesting as I have two blueprints of that part number and one has only one light and the other has two.
The two light version is Revision H dated 4-30-42 and it is very hard to read the title block and I will let you decide which models it covers (the columns above Scale Full Size)
The second box on the drawing (Finish Spec) shows this panel was used on the D, E, F, E-1, and H87A2 and 3.
On the single light version D703 Revision I dated 1-5-43 it is hard to read the title block but I think it covers the D, E, F, E-1 and H87?? models. Your eyesight may be better than mine.
The finish spec box on the drawing is a little clearer and shows D, E, F, E-1, H87A2 3 and L
So I guess your panel fits any of those models, except the early D which had an 87-61-510 panel with no lights.
It appears that the two light panel is actually the earliest panel and would have been fitted to all P-40 aircraft up until some time shortly after May 1st, 1943 when Revision I was completed UNLESS the change was made earlier on an Engineering Order (EO) and the drawing lagged behind. In that case I would expect the EO to be in the drawing change box and it is not. That said the early P-40E -2 has only one light. The answer may be in the reply to Geoffrey Sinclairs post above
D703
But then it gets interesting as I have two blueprints of that part number and one has only one light and the other has two.
The two light version is Revision H dated 4-30-42 and it is very hard to read the title block and I will let you decide which models it covers (the columns above Scale Full Size)
The second box on the drawing (Finish Spec) shows this panel was used on the D, E, F, E-1, and H87A2 and 3.
On the single light version D703 Revision I dated 1-5-43 it is hard to read the title block but I think it covers the D, E, F, E-1 and H87?? models. Your eyesight may be better than mine.
The finish spec box on the drawing is a little clearer and shows D, E, F, E-1, H87A2 3 and L
So I guess your panel fits any of those models, except the early D which had an 87-61-510 panel with no lights.
It appears that the two light panel is actually the earliest panel and would have been fitted to all P-40 aircraft up until some time shortly after May 1st, 1943 when Revision I was completed UNLESS the change was made earlier on an Engineering Order (EO) and the drawing lagged behind. In that case I would expect the EO to be in the drawing change box and it is not. That said the early P-40E -2 has only one light. The answer may be in the reply to Geoffrey Sinclairs post above
D703
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MiTasol
Major
Excellent as always Geoffrey. There were actually two submodels of E and two submodels of E-1 aircraft and my research shows them as below. Any corrections are welcome as always. I never got the dates on the 1940FY aircraft.
I am beginning to suspect that the two light panel may have been a British requirement and produced long before the drawing was updated. The Brits did a lot of strange things like requiring steel rudder treadles (pedals to you and I) on the A-3 models and naturally those do not show up in any of the manuals or parts lists.
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MiTasol
Major
and here is a different P-40 manual with the Landing gear warning lamp dated five months later than the single lamp panel in an earlier manual. Interestingly the early manual is 25CF-2 for the P-40E and this one 25CJ-2 for the E-1 and appears to be a copy of the RAF AP with the USAAC TO number as it complies with the RAF AP layout instead of the USAAC/F TO layout. Logical seeing the US impressed a number of E-1 aircraft into the USAAF after Pearl Harbour and would have wanted an instant manual produced for US personnel.
Obviously the drawing was updated long after the panels were produced. Now I guess the question is - were they only fitted to RAF export aircraft? Or only E-1 aircraft? Or only H87A-3 aircraft? Or ........
Obviously the drawing was updated long after the panels were produced. Now I guess the question is - were they only fitted to RAF export aircraft? Or only E-1 aircraft? Or only H87A-3 aircraft? Or ........
You can make inquiries about the restored P-40Es from photos in books by Drendel and Kinzey.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,278
- Sep 30, 2021
I do not think I have the company documents to explain the Curtiss H87 designations. As far as the Air Forces are concerned they are P-40E and E-1. The USAAF lists the British order for Tomahawks as HK-81A, for Kittyhawk I as HK-87A.
What the table in message 24 calls delivery dates are acceptance dates or else aircraft were being accepted and delivered on the same day. Also should H87-B2 be H87B-2? 40-358 accepted 20 August 1941, 40-382 to 681 accepted 24 June to 16 October 1941.
The H-87B-2 are all from contract AC-12414 dated 26 April 1939, 524 aircraft built as 199 P-40, 22 P-40D, 301 P-40E, 1 XP-40F, 1 P-40G
The H87-A2 are from contract AC-15802 dated 13 September 1940 or its' supplement 1 dated 6 October 1943 (so well after all the P-40 on it had been built), 1,842 aircraft, 131 P-40B, 193 P-40C, 519 P-40E, 699 P-40F, 123 P-40F-5, 177 P-40F-10
The H87A-3 are from the first batch of 420 USAAF serials from Contract DA-3 dated 12 May 1941 for 1,500 P-40E-1, the H87A-3 from the second batch of 1,080 USAAF serials. The RAF essentially had one block of serials, ET100 to EV699, (no EU serials issued, nor EV000 to 099)
At the moment the Curtiss designations mostly track the USAAF serial allocations, acting like North American Charge Numbers.
In production order
P-40 from AC-12414 (May to October 1940)
P-40B from AC-15802 (February and March 1941, plus 1 more each in April and May)
P-40C from AC-15802 (March to May 1941)
P-40D from AC-12414 (May and June 1941)
P-40E from AC-12414 then AC-15802 (June 1941 onwards)
As delivered in the US P-40E AC-12414, 280 US, 21 USSR, AC-15802 409 US, 110 USSR.
Contract DA-3 P-40E-1 315 US, 444 British Empire, 708 USSR, 6 Brazil, 27 China
As is known in Australia the RAAF and USAAF ended up flying a mixture of E and E-1 from US, British (Australian) and Netherlands orders. Similar for the Red Air Force
What the table in message 24 calls delivery dates are acceptance dates or else aircraft were being accepted and delivered on the same day. Also should H87-B2 be H87B-2? 40-358 accepted 20 August 1941, 40-382 to 681 accepted 24 June to 16 October 1941.
The H-87B-2 are all from contract AC-12414 dated 26 April 1939, 524 aircraft built as 199 P-40, 22 P-40D, 301 P-40E, 1 XP-40F, 1 P-40G
The H87-A2 are from contract AC-15802 dated 13 September 1940 or its' supplement 1 dated 6 October 1943 (so well after all the P-40 on it had been built), 1,842 aircraft, 131 P-40B, 193 P-40C, 519 P-40E, 699 P-40F, 123 P-40F-5, 177 P-40F-10
The H87A-3 are from the first batch of 420 USAAF serials from Contract DA-3 dated 12 May 1941 for 1,500 P-40E-1, the H87A-3 from the second batch of 1,080 USAAF serials. The RAF essentially had one block of serials, ET100 to EV699, (no EU serials issued, nor EV000 to 099)
At the moment the Curtiss designations mostly track the USAAF serial allocations, acting like North American Charge Numbers.
In production order
P-40 from AC-12414 (May to October 1940)
P-40B from AC-15802 (February and March 1941, plus 1 more each in April and May)
P-40C from AC-15802 (March to May 1941)
P-40D from AC-12414 (May and June 1941)
P-40E from AC-12414 then AC-15802 (June 1941 onwards)
As delivered in the US P-40E AC-12414, 280 US, 21 USSR, AC-15802 409 US, 110 USSR.
Contract DA-3 P-40E-1 315 US, 444 British Empire, 708 USSR, 6 Brazil, 27 China
As is known in Australia the RAAF and USAAF ended up flying a mixture of E and E-1 from US, British (Australian) and Netherlands orders. Similar for the Red Air Force
MiTasol
Major
I restored several P-40s in the 70's and never saw a two light panel.
And all have the one light only. The exception is the Hansen one seen in the right shot from the Drendel's book (p57). There are the two lights there.
The one seen in the pic from Kinzey's book (p40) also have the one. But there are the three lights additionally in one line. It is a shot of the cockpit of the P-40E USAAF 41-36402 , delivered to the RCAF as 1082, Serial # AL152. Judging by the indicators the panel was modified at the post war time.
The Hansen P-40E-1 is the ex-RNZAF and carried the manufacturer's serial number 19669, USAF serial 41-25158 and RAF serial ET 482. After the war it was first displayed at Museum Of Transport And Technology in Western Springs, Auckland. It has been restored to flying condition, coming back to air in 1998. Also it is quite difficult to state if the two lights were there factory installed or one was added later during her overhauls. What is more the RNZAF operated the K,L,M,N models as well.
An excerpt from her history ...
So it is a "mixture" actually. As a result the kite could have had the pilot's panel attached from the L variant that seems to be the same as the F one. Both models were assembled on lines at the same time. Well .. I'm still thinking the requested piece of the indicator panel is of the F or perhaps of the L variant.
The one seen in the pic from Kinzey's book (p40) also have the one. But there are the three lights additionally in one line. It is a shot of the cockpit of the P-40E USAAF 41-36402 , delivered to the RCAF as 1082, Serial # AL152. Judging by the indicators the panel was modified at the post war time.
The Hansen P-40E-1 is the ex-RNZAF and carried the manufacturer's serial number 19669, USAF serial 41-25158 and RAF serial ET 482. After the war it was first displayed at Museum Of Transport And Technology in Western Springs, Auckland. It has been restored to flying condition, coming back to air in 1998. Also it is quite difficult to state if the two lights were there factory installed or one was added later during her overhauls. What is more the RNZAF operated the K,L,M,N models as well.
An excerpt from her history ...
So it is a "mixture" actually. As a result the kite could have had the pilot's panel attached from the L variant that seems to be the same as the F one. Both models were assembled on lines at the same time. Well .. I'm still thinking the requested piece of the indicator panel is of the F or perhaps of the L variant.
MiTasol
Major
Thanks Geoffrey. Like you I have never seen Curtiss company documents that explain the Curtiss H87 designations so I have trusted those designations provided to my by the archives reference team at the NASM. AFAIR I have never come across the HK87-A designation and the H87A designations show as, for example, H87A-2 in some docs and H87-A2 in others, so finding a definitive Curtiss doc would make life so much easier.
You are probably correct on Acceptance Date where I wrote Delivery Date. I am trying to find my USAAF P-40E record document (I will post it here when I do) and that is also full of errors as many of the P-40E aircraft it lists and shows as sent to Russian actually came to Australia.
With all due respect, a photo of the instrument panel of a clearly identified P-40F/L with the same compass location would be appreciated. Then the attribution of the panel to the P-40F/L model would be quite reasonable. I am not a P-40 expert, but so far I have never seen such a photo.
Post #28, P-40 Flight Manual
Page 6 & 7 of the pdf, F- has Warning Horn, L- has Indicator Light, but says location is upper left of instrument panel.
Page 18 of the pdf shows a P-40F Instrument Panel minus the Landing Gear Indicator Light.
Page 6 & 7 of the pdf, F- has Warning Horn, L- has Indicator Light, but says location is upper left of instrument panel.
Page 18 of the pdf shows a P-40F Instrument Panel minus the Landing Gear Indicator Light.
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RP-40D : does the R stand for '' restricted '' ?
I agree a good image would be fine. However the manuals to which mjfur posted links above, show the pilot's main panels with the coolant warning lamp and the hole for the landing gear warning light. Although the instruction for the P-40F mentions that the location of the light was upper left of instrument panel, what is a typo IMHO, and that the F had the Warning Horn while the L the light, it means that the mounting of the light there could be also for the F. Considering all that info the F/L panel is correct more than the E.
Regarding the compass location ... judging by the pics/diagrams in all books/manuals for the P-40D/E/F/L it was always attached in the middle of the panel at the bottom edge between the two holders for the altimetr and compass correction cards.
Thnx. Seems that neither the layout of the cutouts on the instrument panel nor the presence of the additional landing gear warning light cannot be used as unambiguous indicators of the P-40 model.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,278
- Sep 30, 2021
41-36402/EV148 was a P-40E-1 that stayed in the US. RCAF 1082 was RAF Kittyhawk I AL152, no USAAF serial
Has P-40L-1 42-10433 arriving on 13 March 1943 becoming NZ3074 then returned to the US. The USAAF says shipped out of New York on 31 January 1943, returning to the US 30 January 1944 and surveyed 2 February. The US Delivery Logs say the original engine was 41-48588, while for 41-25158 the original engine was 42-34020 (as does the RNZAF).
New Zealand was sent 44 P-40E-1, 22 P-40K, 35 P-40M and 175 P-40N, total 276, there were additional theatre transfers, 293 RNZAF serials used, 62 E, 23 K, 1 L, 35 M and 172 N.
RP-40D the R means restricted, the P-40, P-40B were classified restricted on 22 October 1942, no date for the P-40C or D.
Has P-40L-1 42-10433 arriving on 13 March 1943 becoming NZ3074 then returned to the US. The USAAF says shipped out of New York on 31 January 1943, returning to the US 30 January 1944 and surveyed 2 February. The US Delivery Logs say the original engine was 41-48588, while for 41-25158 the original engine was 42-34020 (as does the RNZAF).
New Zealand was sent 44 P-40E-1, 22 P-40K, 35 P-40M and 175 P-40N, total 276, there were additional theatre transfers, 293 RNZAF serials used, 62 E, 23 K, 1 L, 35 M and 172 N.
RP-40D the R means restricted, the P-40, P-40B were classified restricted on 22 October 1942, no date for the P-40C or D.
MiTasol
Major
Yes.
This is the list of Restricted aircraft as of 1944-08-15 and a brief description of why and includes the British export aircraft that were impressed into the USAAF after Pearl Harbor.
- Thread starter
- #39
I appreciate the discussion and am trying hard to digest all this, but being the dope I am, you lost me. Is there any consensus as to whether this is likely an E or an F/L? Until that's resolved, if it can be resolved, I can't really apply the information Mr. Sinclair has so graciously offered.
MiTasol
Major
Your best bet is to look for the item part number stamped into the metal of the panel and providing that to the forum.
Even then it will only help if the number is NOT 87-61-522. Otherwise you would need internal factory information that is currently not available to me or, as far as I know, any other forum member.
K and M models used the 87-61-524 panels according to the parts catalogues.
And you are not a dummy being confused by this. I have lots of hands on P-40 experience, as do some others here, and, again like lots here, a large collection of P-40 manuals and blueprints, and I am equally confused.
Even then it will only help if the number is NOT 87-61-522. Otherwise you would need internal factory information that is currently not available to me or, as far as I know, any other forum member.
K and M models used the 87-61-524 panels according to the parts catalogues.
And you are not a dummy being confused by this. I have lots of hands on P-40 experience, as do some others here, and, again like lots here, a large collection of P-40 manuals and blueprints, and I am equally confused.
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