Which theater of War Would you choose for flying?

[BlackWolf3945]

ETO is the way 'ta go...


Fade to Black...

 

[Huckebein]

I'd say the ETO for beautiful landscape, (relatively) short distances and benevolent inhabitants (for a British pilot). On the other hand, air-air combat over Europe often got particularly vicious, despite the odd shows of valour and comradeship between opposing pilots. I just wouldn't enjoy being caught in a fierce 1943 Channel Front dogfight I don't think...

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Western Front was far more congenial that the Eastern.

 

[dead parrot]

I think the Western Front and Eastern Front were like different wars, almost. I'm about halfway into Beevor's Stalingrad, and the sheer scale of the fighting, losses, and horror is just awesome. An Axis pilot bailing out over Soviet territority would be as likely to be lynched by civilians as anything, and if the Soviet pilot survived his ramming attack and the SS interrogators, he'd be off to a POW camp with less than 1 in 3 chance of surviving the war... That was a hard war there.

 

[plan_D]

Both sides brought it on themselves. In the West, the British and Germans were gentlemen at war, both being warrior nations with long standing war history. And chivilric standings they would treat one another with the most respect, or at least the old fashioned Prussian soldiers would.

On the East both sides hated one another, the Germans saw Slavs as unter-menschen and the Slavs saw the Germans as the worst enemy in the world. In 1941 some Russian and Eastern European towns, and cities waved the invading Germans in because they hated the rule of Stalin. But even since 1939 when the Polish massacred hundreds of German civilians in Bromberg the hatred was present.
Eventually when the Wehrmacht, along with the Waffen-SS passed through the villages and towns the Einzatgruppen came in. Mopping up civilians and taking them away. This had a backlash to the front, which whipped the Russian into returning the favour. Which made the Germans on the front do it back.

Another thing is the Russians were brave, crazy and/or drunk. ( ) So the fighting in the air, and on the ground was going to be fierce. Russians were all too willing to ram a plane when out of ammo, anything to stop the Iron Beast which was the Third Reich. On top of that, Russia was where a lot of armoured battles took place. Which were always fierce, with the mass of T-34s against the Panthers and Tigers. Although, the desert had its fair share of armoured conflicts. On equal footing, and hte perfect terrain for armoured tactics. Rommel knew that all too well, unlucky for Guderian he had the Eastern Front from in 1941, and after 'failing' at Tula was relieved of his post. The best general in the war for Gods sake, only stopped by the OKW and OKH. Panzer Army 2 had been fighting for 4 months, non-stop. They needed repair, rest, replacements, fuel but the OKH pushed them further and further. Guderian was up to the task until it was just too much.

Well, I got in the flow there. So there's some reading for you.

 

[Lightning Guy]

I think your absolutely right. On the Western Front there was something of a mutual respect. On the Eastern Front it was outright hatred.

 

[Maestro]

I think your absolutely right. On the Western Front there was something of a mutual respect. On the Eastern Front it was outright hatred.

Concerning the Eastern Front, I absolutely agree with both Plan_D and LG. But the Western Front was more "rotten" than you think...

During my "History of the 20th century" course, we spoke with 3 WW II veteran. Two of them were captured : the first one was captured by both the Germans and the Japaneses while the other one was captured only by the Germans.

Both were saying that Germans well-treated only pilots and high-ranking officers. They were rotten with under-officers and forced privates to work for them in factories or mines.

When they wanted to awake the prisoners, they were sending SS soldiers in the barracks who were ordered to awake them by striking them with their rifles.

However, they said that German veterans from WW I were cool with prisoners. While the WW II rookies were acting as sons of bitches.

The one who was captured by Japaneses also said that he prefered being captured by Germans instead of being captured by Japaneses.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Japanese were absolutely horrid with their prisoners. And I wasn't meaning to imply that life in a Luftstalag was like summer camp. But there are several examples of compassion and chivalery from the Western Front. Compassion on the Eastern Front was a quick death.

 

[plan_D]

On the Western Front there was a lot of respect between the two sides, but there was always going to be young arrogant ones who will abuse their power. I've read an interview with a Canadian Halifax pilot who was captured. He didn't have too bad of a time until a story got back to the camp that Canadians on the front had killed some Germans who had surrendered, so all the Canadians in the camp were treat like shit for the next few months. Tied up a lot of the day, and only released to eat, maybe walk around.

You still have the people you get caught by. If you're lucky you'll get caught by a decent officer (like Rommel), and you'll be treat well. Or if unlucky you'll get caught by some arrogant shit and be treat like shit, or even killed there and then. We all know it happened, it was just a bit better on the Western Front, than the East.

If Germany was full of Rommels and Guderians, it would have been a Gentlemens war. 8) But instead it was dominated by Hitlers, Heydrichs and Goebbels.

Still there are countless acts of chivalry. I heard of a U-Boat coming to the surface to give a lifeboat food, blankets and water. And the lifeboat was from the ship it had just sunk.
Rommel cut his own troops water rations to give more to the British PoWs. So the Germans weren't all bad, some were just fighting for their country.

'We weren't fighting for Hitler, we were fighting for Prussia. We didn't care about the reason, we were convinced our country was in danger so we were the first to protect it' Heinz Guderian.

 

[Maestro]

May be there were countless act of chivalery in the Western Front, but there were also a lot of coward acts !

I remember of a veteran speaking of around 125 Canadian prisoners being murdered at Caen.

 

[Lightning Guy]

There's also the infamous massacre at Malmedy during the Battle of the Buldge.

But the relationship that developed between Badder and Galland is a good example of how things could be friendlier in the West. Galland later admitted that Badder had nearly talked him into flying a 109. Also, Marsielle twice flew through ground fire over a British field in Africa to drop a note conderning the fate of one of the British pilots.

 

[plan_D]

Before we get into the massacres the Germans did against the Allies. We must remember how we kindly returned the favour. Over Dresden 1945.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Dresden was terrible, but I do see a distinction. They people of Dresden had not surrendered. The soldiers at Malmedy had. That may be a fine line but it is a line that exists.

 

[Maestro]

... And the 125 Canadians murdered at Caen were not soldiers that surrendered during the Battle of Caen, they were soldiers captured during past Allied operations (like Dieppe or Monte Cassino (Italy)).

 

[dead parrot]

Of course, the idea used to be that civilians didn't HAVE to surrender--they weren't supposed to be combatents in the first place. Before the war began, both Churchill and FDR very emphatically condemned the deliberate bombing of civilians. They used to think it was a bad thing to do...

 

[plan_D]

Plus the fact we killed plenty of Germans who had surrendered on the field. A prisoner was a waste of resources, as long as you all recognise the Allies did it as well. It wasn't just the Germans who did it.

 

[NightHawk]

the african theater brought the best out of the pilot and plane.
i would like to try how was desert air engaments.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the african theater brought the best out of the pilot and plane

providing the engine wasn't full of sand...................

 

[plan_D]

And you didn't die from lack of water.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

or attack from the enemy...................