Which was the best night fighter?

[pbehn]

I'm going to make some long arguments and reasonings.

You're possibly right in that the He 219, while slightly faster than a Ju 88 with the same engine, would probably also be incapable of catching a Mosquito.

The problem is that the 650kmh/407mph Ju 88G/Ju338J with Jumo 213E is not going to catch a 715kmh/440mph Mosquito. In fact even a Mosquito NF probably couldn't catch a Pathfinder or Photo Reconnaissance Unit Mosquito.

The He 219 may have been the quickest opportunity around to make something that could at least match a Mosquito as the DB603L came in to use. I will argue that this engine would have allowed a 440mph He 219 even if the Do 335 was clearly much faster.

Luftwaffe programs were always messed up by either:
1 Cancelling them in order to get something better in the future eg Fw 187 to get Ta 154, He 219 to get Do 335. Ju 89/Do 19 to get He 177
2 Cancelling them to standardise eg He 219 versus Ju 388
2 Forcing them to use inferior engines in more plentiful supply thus converting a superior aircraft producing an uncompetitive aircraft not worth building at all. Fe 187.
3 Trying to convert them into "Multi Roll Combat Aircraft". Schnell(fast) bombers that were also forced to become dive bombers and often zerstoerers as well that then had to become night fighters. As a result these aircraft were too heavy and slow.
4 Heavy bombers that were also dive bombers. He 177 with 4 separate engines. They waited till 1942 to rescind this.
5 Giving up on concepts like long range single seat fighter entirely in order to force every specification into the suffocating zerstoerer concept.

The DB603L with 2400hp and two stage supercharger was starting to make a showing in 1945 on the Ta 152C.

With the DB603L engine the Do 335 was estimated to achieve 790km/h/490mph but our He 219 with this engine might be able to match a Mosquito at 710/440mph.

The He 219 existed and didn't need a complicated leading edge radar array like the Do 335. Both Ju 88/388 and He 219 aircraft could match the Mosquito in speed with the Jumo 222E/F. This engine was benching at 2800hp with B4+MW50 in 1940 and put on the production program but then removed when the standard was raised to 3000hp.

The problem is that the 650kmh/407mph Ju 88G/Ju338J with Jumo 213E is not going to catch a 715kmh/440mph Mosquito. In fact even a Mosquito NF probably couldn't catch a Pathfinder or Photo Reconnaissance Unit Mosquito.

So really nothing is available though the Me 262, Ar 234 and Do 335 are close.

And of course the British weren't standing still, There was still a little development potential in the Merlin they could have done such as 3 speed supercharger and with considerable work on the Mosquito the Griffon could be adapted. By June 1945 the Derwent V (scaled down Nene) was flying in modified Meteor III. The aircraft integrated into the Meteor III with eventually became known as the Meteor IV and was as fast as the Me 262 and could fly to 46000ft. It would be able to perform the Mosquitos Night Fighter role with a second cockpit, and its daylight reconnaissance role. It might be able to do pathfinding with an external bomb/marker load.

The top speed of the Mosquito was only part of the problem. The PR version maximum cruise speed was 358 MPH and it carried up to 850 gallons of fuel
. If it were to intercept the same type at 25,000ft in the 16 minutes it takes to get to 25,000 ft its target has cruised 100 miles, but while climbing it is doing much less than 358 MPH. The Mosquito had a service ceiling near to 40,000, in practice vectoring an interception with prop aircraft is very difficult. The RAF had the same problem with Jabo raids at the end of the BoB.

 

[pbehn]

3 Trying to convert them into "Multi Roll Combat Aircraft". Schnell(fast) bombers that were also forced to become dive bombers and often zerstoerers as well that then had to become night fighters. As a result these aircraft were too heavy and slow.
.

Many aircraft were multi role combat aircraft in WW2 but you cant make them what they aren't. The Mosquito was a fast bomber, heavy fighter (zerstorer), nightfighter and recon aircraft, so was the P-38. The Typhoon was still a very competent fighter when it dropped its bombs or rockets and its bomb load/ fire power was equal to a D-17. The allies in the west had a huge number of designs and engines to choose from and many niches to fill, the Russians were fighting a different war with different niches to fill. Germany just couldnt come up with a technical superiority to overcome this obvious disadvantage, especially since it didnt really start applying itself to the issue until 1942/43 by which time it was way too late.

 

[Koopernic]

Many aircraft were multi role combat aircraft in WW2 but you cant make them what they aren't. The Mosquito was a fast bomber, heavy fighter (zerstorer), nightfighter and recon aircraft, so was the P-38. The Typhoon was still a very competent fighter when it dropped its bombs or rockets and its bomb load/ fire power was equal to a D-17. The allies in the west had a huge number of designs and engines to choose from and many niches to fill, the Russians were fighting a different war with different niches to fill. Germany just couldnt come up with a technical superiority to overcome this obvious disadvantage, especially since it didnt really start applying itself to the issue until 1942/43 by which time it was way too late.

I have Dietmar Hermann's book on the Fw 187 (a famous author on the Fw 187, Fw 190D and Ta 152). In his Fw 187 book there are many illustrations of the effort Focke-Wulf was forced to go to in order to try and adapt the Fw 187 into the "zerstoerer" role in order to try and get sale.

The observer was made to face rearward, the cockpit canopy was raised and rearward facing armament was added. I think dive brakes were added as well. These modification resulted in an aircraft that lost performance and gained a high wing loading.

Focke-Wulf was easily able to provide both a single seat Fw 187 and also a duel seat with the radio operator facing forward. The "radio operators" job is to take navigation fixes in bad weather and at night, operate the radio and radar if fitted to alleviate the pilot so he may concentrate on instrument flying, retain his night vision and keep a lookout ahead. With a mirror he could have provided a second set of eyes.

The basic unmodified Fw 187 would have provided one key trick: immense speed on the DB605 engine when that engine was slightly inferior to the Merlin in power and altitude performance. Here was a high speed interceptor that had the best chance of intercepting a mosquito in both the day and at night with a radar, a high speed long range reconnaissance aircraft that could evade interception (possibly the most critical role of all) and a long range fighter that would use its speed to overcome its high wing loading.

So I find it interesting that 'group think' can take hold and some of these outdated ideas become unassailable.

The Zerstoerer concept was a good concept when used within its limitations, no other nation had an aircraft as good in that role for 1-2 years.

 

[pbehn]

I have Dietmar Hermann's book on the Fw 187 (a famous author on the Fw 187, Fw 190D and Ta 152). In his Fw 187 book there are many illustrations of the effort Focke-Wulf was forced to go to in order to try and adapt the Fw 187 into the "zerstoerer" role in order to try and get sale.

The observer was made to face rearward, the cockpit canopy was raised and rearward facing armament was added. I think dive brakes were added as well. These modification resulted in an aircraft that lost performance and gained a high wing loading.

Focke-Wulf was easily able to provide both a single seat Fw 187 and also a duel seat with the radio operator facing forward. The "radio operators" job is to take navigation fixes in bad weather and at night, operate the radio and radar if fitted to alleviate the pilot so he may concentrate on instrument flying, retain his night vision and keep a lookout ahead. With a mirror he could have provided a second set of eyes.

The basic unmodified Fw 187 would have provided one key trick: immense speed on the DB605 engine when that engine was slightly inferior to the Merlin in power and altitude performance. Here was a high speed interceptor that had the best chance of intercepting a mosquito in both the day and at night with a radar, a high speed long range reconnaissance aircraft that could evade interception (possibly the most critical role of all) and a long range fighter that would use its speed to overcome its high wing loading.

So I find it interesting that 'group think' can take hold and some of these outdated ideas become unassailable.

The Zerstoerer concept was a good concept when used within its limitations, no other nation had an aircraft as good in that role for 1-2 years.

The Fw 187 was the equal of the British Whirlwind. You cannot just bolt on engines with twice the weight power fuel consumption and cooling requirements without a complete re design, that is why they both ended up on the shelf.

 

[dedalos]

The Fw 187 was the equal of the British Whirlwind. You cannot just bolt on engines with twice the weight power fuel consumption and cooling requirements without a complete re design, that is why they both ended up on the shelf.

The Fw187 was designed from the begining for the Db 600 series of engines. Also in 1942 it was design modified to enter production with up to date modifications.

 

[dedalos]

I'm going to make some long arguments and reasonings.

You're possibly right in that the He 219, while slightly faster than a Ju 88 with the same engine, would probably also be incapable of catching a Mosquito.

The problem is that the 650kmh/407mph Ju 88G/Ju338J with Jumo 213E is not going to catch a 715kmh/440mph Mosquito. In fact even a Mosquito NF probably couldn't catch a Pathfinder or Photo Reconnaissance Unit Mosquito.

The He 219 may have been the quickest opportunity around to make something that could at least match a Mosquito as the DB603L came in to use. I will argue that this engine would have allowed a 440mph He 219 even if the Do 335 was clearly much faster.

Luftwaffe programs were always messed up by either:
1 Cancelling them in order to get something better in the future eg Fw 187 to get Ta 154, He 219 to get Do 335. Ju 89/Do 19 to get He 177
2 Cancelling them to standardise eg He 219 versus Ju 388
2 Forcing them to use inferior engines in more plentiful supply thus converting a superior aircraft producing an uncompetitive aircraft not worth building at all. Fe 187.
3 Trying to convert them into "Multi Roll Combat Aircraft". Schnell(fast) bombers that were also forced to become dive bombers and often zerstoerers as well that then had to become night fighters. As a result these aircraft were too heavy and slow.
4 Heavy bombers that were also dive bombers. He 177 with 4 separate engines. They waited till 1942 to rescind this.
5 Giving up on concepts like long range single seat fighter entirely in order to force every specification into the suffocating zerstoerer concept.

The DB603L with 2400hp and two stage supercharger was starting to make a showing in 1945 on the Ta 152C.

With the DB603L engine the Do 335 was estimated to achieve 790km/h/490mph but our He 219 with this engine might be able to match a Mosquito at 710/440mph.

The He 219 existed and didn't need a complicated leading edge radar array like the Do 335. Both Ju 88/388 and He 219 aircraft could match the Mosquito in speed with the Jumo 222E/F. This engine was benching at 2800hp with B4+MW50 in 1940 and put on the production program but then removed when the standard was raised to 3000hp.

The problem is that the 650kmh/407mph Ju 88G/Ju338J with Jumo 213E is not going to catch a 715kmh/440mph Mosquito. In fact even a Mosquito NF probably couldn't catch a Pathfinder or Photo Reconnaissance Unit Mosquito.

So really nothing is available though the Me 262, Ar 234 and Do 335 are close.

And of course the British weren't standing still, There was still a little development potential in the Merlin they could have done such as 3 speed supercharger and with considerable work on the Mosquito the Griffon could be adapted. By June 1945 the Derwent V (scaled down Nene) was flying in modified Meteor III. The aircraft integrated into the Meteor III with eventually became known as the Meteor IV and was as fast as the Me 262 and could fly to 46000ft. It would be able to perform the Mosquitos Night Fighter role with a second cockpit, and its daylight reconnaissance role. It might be able to do pathfinding with an external bomb/marker load.

Hajo hermannn in his book reports that he intercepted a Mosquito with his Fw190 during night, 440mph sounds me a little high for cruising speed
Theres no point to speak about the DB 603 L . It was available in1945 ,even this is not certain , and its performance is controversial
With realistically available engines ,there was no reason he 219 to be produced.Also could NOT carry the Berlin radar
Lets not forget the Me 410. It s a mystery to me why was not used as NF. It was the faster of all german twins, it was employed as night intruder, was available in numbers especially after spring 1944, had good range to wait on height for the Mosquitoes, and with Gm1 should be pretty close in speed.

 

[Shortround6]

We have the ever changing, rubber FW 187 rearing it's head again

The observer was made to face rearward, the cockpit canopy was raised and rearward facing armament was added

single seat

two seat.

No raised canopy. The added reward firing armament was a single MG 15 with about 6 drums of ammo. It also could NOT point below a 15 degree angle from horizontal. Fueld of fire was poor but it didn't require the canopy to be raised.
Drawings are in the book listed as are photos of the rear cockpit without gun but with mount and the slot in the canopy roof.
not all two seaters got the rear gun

No real increase in drag over the single seater from the addition of the 2nd seat.
However the provision of a useful armament may have added drag.
The upper machine gun was not the most streamline installation and the blast troughs for the 20mm guns (which the single seater didn't have either) may have also added drag.

 

[pbehn]

The Fw187 was designed from the begining for the Db 600 series of engines. Also in 1942 it was design modified to enter production with up to date modifications.

You could say the same about the Bf109 but that resulted in a plane that was too small later in the war. To me the Fw 187 just looks all wrong to do all the tasks I am told it would have been great at. The radiator design is draggy, the fuselage has no space and the pilot view is poor. It has a smaller wing span and area than a Mosquito, larger than a Whirlwind. Everything just seems to be in the wrong place, like a sport version of a HS 129.

 

[nuuumannn]

Germany just couldnt come up with a technical superiority to overcome this obvious disadvantage, especially since it didnt really start applying itself to the issue until 1942/43 by which time it was way too late.

I agree. There was certainly sense in the desire to make the He 177 and Bomber B into reality, but the resources, planning and co-operation was just not there to produce advanced projects of their scope within the industry, plus some of the bizarre decisions coming from the RLM didn't help. This folks, is what happens in a dictatorship. The B-29 is a great example of how a programme should have been structured, with sub-contracting, vast expenditure and effort working toward one goal, so it is a surprise when a closer look is made and all sorts of flaws reveal themselves, not to mention the issues the aircraft suffered with its engines. New technology is hard and even in a bureaucratic system that wasn't the mess that Nazism thrived in didn't work out so well and only advanced with throwing money and even more vast amounts of effort at it. It's just not surprising that these programmes failed under the circumstances they evolved in.

The observer was made to face rearward, the cockpit canopy was raised and rearward facing armament was added. I think dive brakes were added as well. These modification resulted in an aircraft that lost performance and gained a high wing loading.

This was for a stuka variant that was a vain attempt at producing the type as a specialist dive bomber to a two-seat, twin engined dive bomber requirement in 1940/1941. No interest from the RLM and Fw was told not to carry out any further work on the type, that is, until May 1942...

So I find it interesting that 'group think' can take hold and some of these outdated ideas become unassailable.

...By August 1942, the RLM had stopped all work on the type when the Kampfzerstorer (excuse the lack of umlaut) prototypes were underway. No specific reason was given, but resources were going to be devoted to the He 219 and Me 410. Certainly on paper the Fw 187 variant looked like a winner, but again the age old debate about its ultimate value to the Germans and its impact on production of existing types comes into play - what was Fw NOT doing to have to do to build it? In the Petrick book it explicity states that Tank and co were working nights and weekends to get the thing on paper - their resources were stretched and there was little excess to offer to the programme.

Had it gone into production, we could have expected to see it in late 1943/early 1944 entering squadron service, but then what? Even with it in service in high-ish numbers - difficult to predict what kind of numbers, given the politics that surrounded the He 219 development and the delays that afflicted the Me 410 programme, both of which worked on a similar timeline to what we are guesstimating our Fw 187 Destroyers are working to, the type is effective, but to what extent? Is it going to change the course of the war effective? Probably not with the growing resources available to the Allies and their foot hold in Europe (not to forget the Soviets advancing from the East), but obviously it would have boasted excellent performance, and could have been a contender for one of the war's most brilliant multi-role aircraft, but for one thing; the previously mentioned unpredictability of the personalities at work in the RLM, the aviation industry and the armaments industry.

There's no guarantee this aircraft, had it gone into service would have been anything more than being remembered as an excellent type that served with the Luftwaffe, but what we can guarantee is that the German hierarchy would have induced delays that would have made the programme as dysfunctional as everything else they were working on.

 

[Koopernic]

The Fw 187's primary, critical and uncompromised role should have been exclusively:
1/ Long range high speed escort fighter.
2/ High Speed Interceptor fast enough to be useful against the Mosquito.
3/ High Speed Photo reconnaissance aircraft.
To fulfil there rolls it must be about 6%-7% faster than any Merlin powered Spitfire or Mosquito while using the best contemporary engine the Germans had at that time the slightly inferior DB601 or DB605 engines.
Any compromises in the design to broaden the mission scope would be completely unacceptable.
There must be no increases in weight and drag for the following:
No ultra heavy armament to destroy bomber formations, no second crew member, no rearward facing crew member, no ultra heavy bomb loads, no dive bombing capability.

An armament of 2 x 20mm MG151 canon and 2 x 13.2mm MG131 machine guns is more than enough. It is twice the fire power of the Me 109G and slightly more than the 2 Hispano Spitfire. It's about 60% of the 4 canon Fw 190A6 in consideration of the higher rate of fire of the unsynchronised armament,

Minor variations in specialist variants would allow the carriage of 4 x 20mm canon with slight speed penalty or a second crew member to operate radio, navigation and lightweight radar (if fitted) for a night fighter, bad weather fighter role. The aircrafts fuel capacity would be impacted but its speed would not be impacted.

Scope drift would increase weight and drag and kill this aircrafts primary role as it has with so many other aircraft modern and old.

The aircraft would be fitted with a centreline mountings and shackles for a centreline 900L (200 Imp gallon) drop tank and that would allow it to carry a 500kg or 2 x 250kg bombs with little impact on performance. In due course it might take underwing drop tanks.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Heavier more adaptable aircraft need bigger engines and those engines just come too late.

 

[nuuumannn]

You can't have your cake and eat it.

I agree. Whilst I do believe the Fw 187 would have been an excellent aircraft in its 1942 incarnation, it is worth keeping the aircraft and its multifarious uses in context. The problem that I see is that, and Hermann and Petrick tend to be a little guilty of this in their book, with all the subsequent design concepts for the airframe that Tank produced, people tend to believe that the airframe that was produced would have been capable of ALL of them. That's just not the case. Clearly in its initial incarnation, like the Westland Whirlwind, it's too small and offers no growth potential for improvement, or a multi-role specification, which the RLM was initially looking at to begin with.

After the disappointment of not receiving the Zerstorer order, Tank used the airframe as the basis of a number of projects, but these would have been quite different to one another had they been built, unlike using the same basic airframe for the Mosquito. For example, the dive bomber variant drawn up in 1940 shares the same appearance, but you can guarantee it would have been structurally strengthened and undertaken considerable structural redesign as a result of the new role. It was also to have been powered by BMW 801s, so significant design differences between it and the actual aircraft built. In fact, the only resemblance between it and the actual machine is the tail. The forward fuselage looks like a completely different aircraft.

By the time the 1942 variant of the design appears, the two-seater that was built was merely a reconstructed original model, which shares the same defect as the original - just adding a heavy cannon armament and stretching the cockpit to enable it to carry two persons does not immediately turn a single-seat fighter into a multi-role Zerstorer. The same issues of limited internal space and minimal growth potential exist. The drawings of the potential Fw 187C in the book bear this out; there is precious little space for avionics for anything other than a strictly day fighter role and as far as the hope of installing cameras internally for reconnaissance - forget it. Discussion revolves around the 'C model being used as a night fighter, but without an increase in internal volume, including an extension to the nose to include incorporating radar, there's no way that the Fw 187C could have done it, and I am led to believe that the intent was that the Fw 187C was to operate in a day fighter-bomber role only. There also doesn't appear to be any provision for drop tanks either, which limits it's range carrying a bomb load.

The high altitude fighter/night fighter variant, approved by the RLM looks different again, and was likely to have been a different take on the same appearance, and the fuselage appears longer in one of the drawings, with, once again, a redesigned forward fuselage. It is, however a single-seater, which is often not acknowledged by pundits when the night fighter is discussed, space for avionics taking up where the second crewmember of the 'C model sat, although there are no aerials of any kind shown in the illustrations provided. This would have been a proposition for only the most skilled pilots, which severely limits its useability.

So all of this points to the fact that the Fw 187 is severely limited in potential as a design. It is not capable of undertaking other duties other than that which it was strictly designed to do simply because it was too small. Each role would have required a very different airframe to the last because of this, which means that strictly speaking, IT WAS NOT a multi-role aircraft. It could be built as a dive bomber, it could be built as a day fighter-bomber, OR it could be built as a high altitude fighter OR night fighter, BUT NOT all of those things in one airframe.

Could it have pulled off the performance that it is credited with? Quite possibly - it was a great little design, but again, start adding the detritus required of a contemporary combat aircraft and its performance edge begins to be swept away. What performance figures Tank drew up for his fighter should be taken with a grain of salt bearing this in mind. Nonetheless, it would have been an awesome little aircraft, pretty too.

 

[pbehn]

I agree. There was certainly sense in the desire to make the He 177 and Bomber B into reality, but the resources, planning and co-operation was just not there to produce advanced projects of their scope within the industry, plus some of the bizarre decisions coming from the RLM didn't help. This folks, is what happens in a dictatorship. The B-29 is a great example of how a programme should have been structured, with sub-contracting, vast expenditure and effort working toward one goal, so it is a surprise when a closer look is made and all sorts of flaws reveal themselves, not to mention the issues the aircraft suffered with its engines. New technology is hard and even in a bureaucratic system that wasn't the mess that Nazism thrived in didn't work out so well and only advanced with throwing money and even more vast amounts of effort at it. It's just not surprising that these programmes failed under the circumstances they evolved in.
.

The people involved didn't seem to know what they were involved in and when they learned they seemed to instantly forget it. The B-29 had all of the USAs resources put into it but still wasn't available in time to have any effect on the war in Europe and in any case wasn't needed. Work on the B-29 started in 1938 and Boeing also produced other 4 engine designs, you cant put a value on that experience. To have any effect on the course of the war the He 177 would have to be in service in numbers in 1940 which would mean work starting almost as soon as Adolf came to power. If it did and was like a B-29, the B-29 was a different beast, even the USA couldn't withstand sustained losses of 4% on missions.

 

[nuuumannn]

The people involved didn't seem to know what they were involved in and when they learned they seemed to instantly forget it.

I don't quite understand where you are going with this in the context of the discussion. My point was that it's difficult enough for a major technologically advanced project to go smoothly under circumstances where the government isn't a fascist dictatorship, so it's no surprise that the He 177 and the Bomber B, both of which were technologically advanced failed under the Nazis when the entire bureaucracy was a viper's nest full of backstabbing and countermanding in order to gain one-upmanship.

 

[dedalos]

The Fw 187 could certainly have entered production in 1942, in place of the Me410 and He 219. Not in parallel with them.
Germany already had a decent multi role aircraft ,the Ju 88. The fw 187 did dont need to cover the roles the Ju 88 (and Bf110) did. Only the 3 roles Koopernic described.1)long range fighter(inthe bay of Biscay i would add)
2)interceptor of recce and pathfindet aircraft
3) reconnaissance
Again i agree with koopernic, for those roles he should be as light and small as possible.
It did not have to carry heavy avionics, Fw 190s and Bf109s on wild sau missions intercepted Mosquitos without radar.
Its airframe should be just strong enough for aerial combat and fuel drop tanks . No bomb load capability, no excessive armor for ground attack, because of the weight penalty. He should be a race horse, the dirty works could be done by the various Ju88s and Bf110G.
It had no business to go for the lancastet s and halifaxes, JUST the Mosquitoes. So no schrage music guns, no armored windshield just 2 Mg151 s with 250 rpg
While it had a small fuselage, the Bf109 had an even smaller one and still could accept cameras.
I have pictures of it with annular radiators. On Db605A would have power to weight ratio on take off weight superior to the Fw190 and slightly superior to the Bf 109G.
(With reasonable armament....)
Using Mw50 should have a fantastic rate of climb.
And all of the above using the standard Db605 already on massive production. On Db605D would be near Do335 performance with far simpler and cheaper airframe
Me410s and He219 required Db603 s to deliver very little,(he219 none) improvement over the Ju88
Fw 187 would not have changed the war outcome. Still its units would be badly outnumbered, would operate with broken communication codes, with sabotaged spare parts, and the pilots undertrained.

 

[pbehn]

I don't quite understand where you are going with this in the context of the discussion. My point was that it's difficult enough for a major technologically advanced project to go smoothly under circumstances where the government isn't a fascist dictatorship, so it's no surprise that the He 177 and the Bomber B, both of which were technologically advanced failed under the Nazis when the entire bureaucracy was a viper's nest full of backstabbing and countermanding in order to gain one-upmanship.

Maybe my post was badly written, I agree with the point you made. Goering was a politician who used to be an aviator. as the top guy he got the organisation he deserved. Since he was in charge but never responsible if things went wrong, everyone around him developed the same habit. Germany stole a march on re arming but started to lose ground from the start of hostilities. Goering as a WW1 ace and head of the LW must have known that as designs became more powerful and complicated they took longer and had more problems. Their progress in engines and designs had to go ahead at the same speed as it started. but it didnt. The He 177 had to go ahead and be in service as the Stirling, Halifax and Manchester/ Lancaster did. If one engine fails like the Vulture and Sabre, get another, or change the design or put everything you can into it to make it work as the US did with the B-29. Goerings outburst about the He 177 is typical of him. In 1942 he hasked why the He 177s "silly engine had turned up". Was he really saying that for 4 years as head of the LW he didnt even know what engine was in his flagship heavy bomber. of course he did, and he should have done something but didnt so he pretended not to know and blamed "others". If it had been in production in 1940 it may have had some use and effect, producing less than a thousand from 1942 to the end of the war was pretty much a waste of time.

 

[nuuumannn]

1)long range fighter(inthe bay of Biscay i would add)
2)interceptor of recce and pathfindet aircraft
3) reconnaissance

Long range fighter/interceptor BY DAY ONLY and NOT a recon aircraft. There is simply no provision in any of the drawings Tank produced for cameras. In the Fw 187C you'd have to remove the rear seat or the fuselage fuel tank. In the high altitude fighter variant you'd have to remove the fuel tank and avionics aft of the single-seat cockpit.

It did not have to carry heavy avionics, Fw 190s and Bf109s on wild sau missions intercepted Mosquitos without radar.

In night/bad weather flying the Fw 187 would have been terrible to fly. It's cockpit was small and not very ergonomic, and there are instruments outside on the engine nacelles - a bad idea for a night/all-weather fighter. As for radar, any self respecting bomber destroyer by night and bad weather had to use it. In the Fw 187 the placing of radar aerials in the nose is impossible because of the propeller arcs. Not only that, the night fighter variant was a single-seater, which means the pilot has a heck of a workload flying an aircraft by instruments only in a not very pilot friendly cockpit, listening to radio intercepts and trying to search for an enemy aircraft in the dark with nothing more than his eyes.

Its airframe should be just strong enough for aerial combat and fuel drop tanks .

In the Fw 187C there was no provision for drop tanks; the drawings in Hermann and Petrick's book bear that out, mind you, there was nothing stating that plumbing couldn't have been put in to enable it. I have no doubt it would have been a good manoeuvrable high performance day fighter bomber though, but a rival to the Bf 110 and Me 410? Not by a long chance - it's too inflexible.

While it had a small fuselage, the Bf109 had an even smaller one and still could accept cameras.

Only one, which restricted the mission it could carry out. Again, in the Fw 187C there is no space unless you remove the back seat or the fuel tank. In the long range fighter variant Tank proposed, the same - it was a single-seater and fuel and avionics took up aft of the cockpit.

It's worth remembering that these aircraft mentioned did not have a common fuselage/engine. They were all different to one another. The Fw 187C WAS NOT the same as the heavy fighter/night fighter variant that the RLM asked Tank to investigate. The fuselage and engines were different on both aircraft. One was a two-seater, the other had a longer fuselage and was a single-seater.

 

[Shortround6]

Not all photo recon cameras are the same size.

I am not sure but this camera was in the cockpit, perhaps aimed through the window that appears to be in the belly of the plane just to the right of the pith helmet of the man carrying the camera. A lot of good work was done with smaller cameras but fitting something this size in a 109 was going to be impossible and it was going to be darn difficult to stuff one in a Fw 187.

 

[pbehn]

Design issues on the Fw 187 were solved by.
1. A new baton and a pair of pink boots.
2 A nice art collection
3 Occupying North Africa, invading the Soviet Union and declaring war on the USA.

See? After point 3 you aren't bothered about the Fw187 range or payload at all.

 

[Koopernic]

I don't quite understand where you are going with this in the context of the discussion. My point was that it's difficult enough for a major technologically advanced project to go smoothly under circumstances where the government isn't a fascist dictatorship, so it's no surprise that the He 177 and the Bomber B, both of which were technologically advanced failed under the Nazis when the entire bureaucracy was a viper's nest full of backstabbing and countermanding in order to gain one-upmanship.

I agree. Whilst I do believe the Fw 187 would have been an excellent aircraft in its 1942 incarnation, it is worth keeping the aircraft and its multifarious uses in context. The problem that I see is that, and Hermann and Petrick tend to be a little guilty of this in their book, with all the subsequent design concepts for the airframe that Tank produced, people tend to believe that the airframe that was produced would have been capable of ALL of them. That's just not the case. Clearly in its initial incarnation, like the Westland Whirlwind, it's too small and offers no growth potential for improvement, or a multi-role specification, which the RLM was initially looking at to begin with.

After the disappointment of not receiving the Zerstorer order, Tank used the airframe as the basis of a number of projects, but these would have been quite different to one another had they been built, unlike using the same basic airframe for the Mosquito. For example, the dive bomber variant drawn up in 1940 shares the same appearance, but you can guarantee it would have been structurally strengthened and undertaken considerable structural redesign as a result of the new role. It was also to have been powered by BMW 801s, so significant design differences between it and the actual aircraft built. In fact, the only resemblance between it and the actual machine is the tail. The forward fuselage looks like a completely different aircraft.

By the time the 1942 variant of the design appears, the two-seater that was built was merely a reconstructed original model, which shares the same defect as the original - just adding a heavy cannon armament and stretching the cockpit to enable it to carry two persons does not immediately turn a single-seat fighter into a multi-role Zerstorer. The same issues of limited internal space and minimal growth potential exist. The drawings of the potential Fw 187C in the book bear this out; there is precious little space for avionics for anything other than a strictly day fighter role and as far as the hope of installing cameras internally for reconnaissance - forget it. Discussion revolves around the 'C model being used as a night fighter, but without an increase in internal volume, including an extension to the nose to include incorporating radar, there's no way that the Fw 187C could have done it, and I am led to believe that the intent was that the Fw 187C was to operate in a day fighter-bomber role only. There also doesn't appear to be any provision for drop tanks either, which limits it's range carrying a bomb load.

The high altitude fighter/night fighter variant, approved by the RLM looks different again, and was likely to have been a different take on the same appearance, and the fuselage appears longer in one of the drawings, with, once again, a redesigned forward fuselage. It is, however a single-seater, which is often not acknowledged by pundits when the night fighter is discussed, space for avionics taking up where the second crewmember of the 'C model sat, although there are no aerials of any kind shown in the illustrations provided. This would have been a proposition for only the most skilled pilots, which severely limits its useability.

So all of this points to the fact that the Fw 187 is severely limited in potential as a design. It is not capable of undertaking other duties other than that which it was strictly designed to do simply because it was too small. Each role would have required a very different airframe to the last because of this, which means that strictly speaking, IT WAS NOT a multi-role aircraft. It could be built as a dive bomber, it could be built as a day fighter-bomber, OR it could be built as a high altitude fighter OR night fighter, BUT NOT all of those things in one airframe.

Could it have pulled off the performance that it is credited with? Quite possibly - it was a great little design, but again, start adding the detritus required of a contemporary combat aircraft and its performance edge begins to be swept away. What performance figures Tank drew up for his fighter should be taken with a grain of salt bearing this in mind. Nonetheless, it would have been an awesome little aircraft, pretty too.

I agree. There was certainly sense in the desire to make the He 177 and Bomber B into reality, but the resources, planning and co-operation was just not there to produce advanced projects of their scope within the industry, plus some of the bizarre decisions coming from the RLM didn't help. This folks, is what happens in a dictatorship. The B-29 is a great example of how a programme should have been structured, with sub-contracting, vast expenditure and effort working toward one goal, so it is a surprise when a closer look is made and all sorts of flaws reveal themselves, not to mention the issues the aircraft suffered with its engines. New technology is hard and even in a bureaucratic system that wasn't the mess that Nazism thrived in didn't work out so well and only advanced with throwing money and even more vast amounts of effort at it. It's just not surprising that these programmes failed under the circumstances they evolved in.



This was for a stuka variant that was a vain attempt at producing the type as a specialist dive bomber to a two-seat, twin engined dive bomber requirement in 1940/1941. No interest from the RLM and Fw was told not to carry out any further work on the type, that is, until May 1942...



...By August 1942, the RLM had stopped all work on the type when the Kampfzerstorer (excuse the lack of umlaut) prototypes were underway. No specific reason was given, but resources were going to be devoted to the He 219 and Me 410. Certainly on paper the Fw 187 variant looked like a winner, but again the age old debate about its ultimate value to the Germans and its impact on production of existing types comes into play - what was Fw NOT doing to have to do to build it? In the Petrick book it explicity states that Tank and co were working nights and weekends to get the thing on paper - their resources were stretched and there was little excess to offer to the programme.

Had it gone into production, we could have expected to see it in late 1943/early 1944 entering squadron service, but then what? Even with it in service in high-ish numbers - difficult to predict what kind of numbers, given the politics that surrounded the He 219 development and the delays that afflicted the Me 410 programme, both of which worked on a similar timeline to what we are guesstimating our Fw 187 Destroyers are working to, the type is effective, but to what extent? Is it going to change the course of the war effective? Probably not with the growing resources available to the Allies and their foot hold in Europe (not to forget the Soviets advancing from the East), but obviously it would have boasted excellent performance, and could have been a contender for one of the war's most brilliant multi-role aircraft, but for one thing; the previously mentioned unpredictability of the personalities at work in the RLM, the aviation industry and the armaments industry.

There's no guarantee this aircraft, had it gone into service would have been anything more than being remembered as an excellent type that served with the Luftwaffe, but what we can guarantee is that the German hierarchy would have induced delays that would have made the programme as dysfunctional as everything else they were working on.

The original Fw 187 concept, with DB600/601 engines merely fulfilled the same requirements as a single seat fighter but by keeping the aircraft light and compact a two engine fighter had 50-60% greater range and better speed than a single. Doing anything else to it would be as silly as mounting a rear gunner and/or dive brakes to a Me 109 or Spitfire. Once they stepped beyond that the idea of it being a P-38 or Whirlwind like fighter it was dead.

Without this the Luftwaffe had no long range escort, recon etc until 1945 when 10 examples of the 750 mile range Ta 152H-1 with wing tanks were delivered.

Ernst Udet wasn't worried about the range of his fighter force when he allowed Fw 187 development to continue but only with Jumo 210 engines thereby saving the program but guaranteeing that the airframe would not be viable when a production decision could have been made.

Udet was worried about the supply of DB601 and Jumo 211 engines and the Fw 187 wasn't getting any of these.

Here is the thing: the men in charge of Luftwaffe procurement and German aircraft production: Milch, Udet and Jenkonshenk all opposed significant investment in heavy or 4 engine bombers.

Why would you need a long range fighter? A large number of interceptors was needed.

They favoured aircraft that could support the German Army tactically with precision bombing. Dive bombers were particularly favoured and, "zerstoerers" which had a ground attack role.

This is actually sensible. The nightmare scenario for Germany was an invasion by France (they'd done so when they occupied the Ruhr and attempted to anex the Sarr) and a concurrent invasion by Poland (one both both highly plausible, Poland and to defeat that thereat a large and well equipped and supported German Army would be needed. No point strategically bombing your enemy and waiting for his production to decline when his army is already half way into your country. To add to this Italy, Czechoslovakia, USSR and UK migh jump in to such a war. Treaties diffused USSR and Italy tensions.

What also needs to be referenced here is the von Schlieffen "plan" which was claimed to be a plan by the Kaisers Germany to invade all of Europe and the world.

The actual 'plan' was unearthed in 1955 in East Germany and rediscovered after German Unification. You can read about this in "Terrence Zubehor's The real German war plan"

It wasn't a plan but a military simulation exercise of 1905. When Germany bumbled into WW1 like every other nation the German high command had to send officers to von Schlieffen's daughters home (he and his wife having passed on) to collect his hand written notes and plans for the simulation exercise.

Post war a combination of allied propagandists seeking to impose German war guilt and hide their own incompetence, German leftists seeking to discredit conservatives and most of all the German High Command itself, who didn't have a plan, presented this exercise as a plan rather than what it was.

In order for Germany to successfully defeat France at the Marne it needed at least 60% more divisions.

The reason it didn't have those divisions is because Tirpitz got his navy built.

In the minds of nearly any German officer at the time was that not primarily supporting the army is what caused German defeat. They weren't going to make the same mistake in WW2 and invest money on the High Seas fleet or its equivalent a 4 engine long range strategic bomber force.

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The mess with Bomber A (He 177), Bomber B (Ju 288, Fw 191, Do 317) has got some history.

When the Ju 89 and Do 19 were cancelled in 1936/37 what was called Bomber A (He 177) was immediately begun. The long range strategic bomber wasn't ignored but only one type was built. I'm not sure to what degree Udet, Jenkonshenk and Milch supported it.

The opportunity for a 4 engine aircraft such as a Do 19 with 4 x 1000hp radials able to support the German navy from 1939 was thus lost. There were no plans for war with Britain so no real plans were made or unrealistic assumptions of bomber range used. Hitler in fact forbade preparing for war with Britain in any way for this.

Either way it was only 1 bomber (the He 177). Britain had 4 less ambitious designs (Stirling, Halifax, Manchester/Lancaster, Warwick) and spread the risk.

The US also had multiple 4 engine bomber designs.

Germany couldn't afford that. However in 1939 and 1940 Ernst Heinkel pressed the Luftwaffe to allow the development of the He 177 as a separate 4 engine bomber and the remove the dive bombing requirement. The answer to him was that that funding for the program couldn't be justified unless the He 177 was also a dive bomber and Heinkel kept going as best it could.

Bomber B also died on the back of its engines. The engine that could have powered it Jumo 222, DB604, BMW 802, DB606 and DB610 all were cancelled because they weren't the front runner (DB604, BMW 802) or had absurd requirements for power or restrictions to bearing materials due to tin shortage fears, technical problems etc.

To compound this the DB606 seemed to work without trouble in the He 119 and Me 261 Adolophine. An extreme misplaced sense of material shortages often drove the Germans into absurd measures such as insufficient nickel in their jet engines or tin in the bearings of the Jumo 222.

 

[Koopernic]

Not all photo recon cameras are the same size.
View attachment 610318
I am not sure but this camera was in the cockpit, perhaps aimed through the window that appears to be in the belly of the plane just to the right of the pith helmet of the man carrying the camera. A lot of good work was done with smaller cameras but fitting something this size in a 109 was going to be impossible and it was going to be darn difficult to stuff one in a Fw 187.

There are smaller highly capable cameras half this size capable of sufficient performance for gathering intelligence, fuel tankage can be compromised and moved to the wings, or the nose lengthened. How did Britain fit cameras in PRU Spitfires? One thing is for sure a Fw 187 had more room than a Me 109.