Which was the best night fighter?

[nuuumannn]

What LW was needing was a Mosqito killer using 1943 engines. That means that should be smaller and lighter . Ideally Fw 187. From the historically available aircraft , i would propose a cleaner Me 410 with GM1. Even better Do335 , if they could focus on the NF variant.

A little bit of telescoping going on here - exactly what is a "Mosquito Killer" and exactly when does the Luftwaffe figure out it needs such a thing? By 1943, the Fw 187 is dead in the water. Not a chance of it being revived and let's not forget that it suffered the same fate as the Westland Whirlwind - it was too limited in scope and size to be anything more than a novelty - yes, Tank and Co redesigned it on the drawing board, but the RLM simply wasn't interested, just like Petter and the Merlin-engined Whirlwind Mk.II - no one was interested in the British Air Ministry.

A cleaner Me 410 with GM1? possibly, but can Messerschmitt spare the extra R & D effort, particularly with the Me 262 undergoing testing, and why would it, with the Me 262 undergoing testing? The Do 335? Too little too late. The RLM and the German aviation industry has made a few too many missteps by 1943 to enable anything beyond the path it was already committed to. Bomber B was dead by then, the He 177 was a BIG problem and would remain so, and what you have left is the Ta 154, the He 219, the Ju 88/188, the Me 410 and the Bf 110. Jets were coming on line, which is certainly a positive, but by late 1944 early 1945 when your Mosquito Killer with its 1943 engines is entering service, the war industry is being pummelled by day and night and the country is under invasion from East and West.

 

[Koopernic]

Agree with your post Koopernic, but to be fair to the He 162, it was, being an emergency fighter, intended of being made of non-strategic materials to ease the supply of aluminium since the Germans were suffering shortages of raw materials (just like the Mosquito, oddly enough, although the British were not suffering an aluminium shortage when GdeH drew up the requirement for the aircraft), but in hindsight, a lack of adequate adhesive for wooden aircraft components was a little down the scale in terms of the wider issues affecting the German aircraft industry and the Reich in general, by the time the He 162 enters service.

One of the driving factors for the "Volkjaeger" was actually fuel not just construction material shortages. The fuel supply available to the Reich was estimated to not be able to generate sufficient missions if the Me 262 was used alone. The He 162 would use less than half the fuel, at least for some missions (daylight interception). Although the aircraft is often criticised for its short endurance it in fact was to receive two fuel volume enhancements: an enlarged fuselage tank and fuel tanks on the inner wing roots that drained into the main tank. Taken to together these would have brought the He 162 to the same endurance level as the Me 262. Of the top of my head 38 minutes full thrust at sea level which is more than the 25 minutes of the basic version. Obviously the He 162 lacked as much fire power unless revolving barrel canon came along.

Why didn't the Germans copy the Mosquito's construction techniques? Their chemists would have no trouble analysing the glue. The Germans if anything had no shame in copying something clever like the STEN and many are anglophiles. Obviously there would be issues with Ecuadorian balsa but it must be something else. From my understanding the issue was the TEGO film factory that actually made the plywood by a process that involved heat cured glue and roller presses or maybe mouldings. How they made the plywood after this factory was damaged in bombing s a question I don't understand. I do know that the Ta 154 cockpit was made of wood and shattered in a crash landing leading to plans to make at least that out of metal.

 

[dedalos]

A little bit of telescoping going on here - exactly what is a "Mosquito Killer" and exactly when does the Luftwaffe figure out it needs such a thing? By 1943, the Fw 187 is dead in the water. Not a chance of it being revived and let's not forget that it suffered the same fate as the Westland Whirlwind - it was too limited in scope and size to be anything more than a novelty - yes, Tank and Co redesigned it on the drawing board, but the RLM simply wasn't interested, just like Petter and the Merlin-engined Whirlwind Mk.II - no one was interested in the British Air Ministry.

"The redesigned Fw187 was ordered in to production in 1942, then cancelled again. It certainly could be produced instead of Me410 and enter service in mid 1943 with Db 605 engines."

A cleaner Me 410 with GM1? possibly, but can Messerschmitt spare the extra R & D effort, particularly with the Me 262 undergoing testing, and why would it, with the Me 262 undergoing testing?

"Such a configuration was in service in limited numbers with reconnaissance units.
. I would add annular radiators , already developed for the He219. The Me262 NF was 2 years away"


The Do 335? Too little too late.


"True,historicaly. But possible if cancel the Ta 154,He219,Me410 and use the resources for the much more promising Do335.Also a development effort focused on the NF variant. The Do335 deserved the effort because had competitive performance using the historicaly produced, badly outclassed german engines"


The RLM and the German aviation industry has made a few too many missteps by 1943 to enable anything beyond the path it was already committed to. Bomber B was dead by then, the He 177 was a BIG problem and would remain so, and what you have left is the Ta 154, the He 219, the Ju 88/188, the Me 410 and the Bf 110. Jets were coming on line, which is certainly a positive, but by late 1944 early 1945 when your Mosquito Killer with its 1943 engines is entering service, the war industry is being pummelled by day and night and the country is under invasion from East and West.

Also lighter Ju 88 versions could be used against the Mosquito path finders.
I really can not see why He219 was produced

 

[Koopernic]

Also lighter Ju 88 versions could be used against the Mosquito path finders.
I really can not see why He219 was produced

I don't think there was a snow flakes chance in hell that any Ju 88 even with a Jumo 213E with MW50 could intercept a Mosquito except in cases of good luck. Mosquito pathfinders and recons were pressurised and routinely able to do 440mph when fitted with two stage Merlin engines.

Data is hard to find on the Ju 88G7 (wwith Jumo 213E) tthat clearly states whether radar, flame dampers was fitted along with the speed but the fastest might have been the Ju 88G7 with Jumo 213E at about 400mph.

We know that Junkers from test data of Ju 388 with Jumo 213E with MW50 stated it could do 407mph and that the Ju 388 and Ju 88S and Ju 388G all had about the same aerodynamic performance. (EG the Ju 88S3 with BMW 801TJ had the same speed as the Ju 388L1 with the same engine)

The He 219 was a little lighter and more aerodynamic so with Jumo 213E+ MW50 it would be faster than the Ju 388

There is data for the Ju 388, which is effectively a Ju 88 variant with the same performance, with Jumo 213E, Jumo 222A3/B3, Jumo 222E/F and BMW801TJ.

Ju 388JHeavy fighter / night fighter.
Ju 388KHigh-altitude bomber.
Ju 388LPhoto-reconnaissance aircraft.

The fastest was the Ju 388L3 recon with Jumo 222E/F at an estimated speed of 444mph but when equipped with gun packs radar and flame dampers this dropped to about 432mph or so.

The only hope of intercepting the Mosquito ever was the Fw 187 built as Kurt Tank had intended with DB601/DB605 engines as a single seater or as a two seater with both crew facing forward. That chance was squandered.

If Willy Messerschmitt or Kurt Tank had of designed an exact Replica of the DeHaviland Mosquito in 1938 the Luftwaffe/RLM would have spent years forcing them into turning it into a two seat zerstoerer with rear armament and 60 degree dive bombing capability probably forced to use BRAMO 323 radials.

 

[dedalos]

I don't think there was a snow flakes chance in hell that any Ju 88 even with a Jumo 213E with MW50 could intercept a Mosquito except in cases of good luck. Mosquito pathfinders and recons were pressurised and routinely able to do 440mph when fitted with two stage Merlin engines.

Data is hard to find on the Ju 88G7 (wwith Jumo 213E) tthat clearly states whether radar, flame dampers was fitted along with the speed but the fastest might have been the Ju 88G7 with Jumo 213E at about 400mph.

We know that Junkers from test data of Ju 388 with Jumo 213E with MW50 stated it could do 407mph and that the Ju 388 and Ju 88S and Ju 388G all had about the same aerodynamic performance. (EG the Ju 88S3 with BMW 801TJ had the same speed as the Ju 388L1 with the same engine)

The He 219 was a little lighter and more aerodynamic so with Jumo 213E+ MW50 it would be faster than the Ju 388

There is data for the Ju 388, which is effectively a Ju 88 variant with the same performance, with Jumo 213E, Jumo 222A3/B3, Jumo 222E/F and BMW801TJ.

Ju 388JHeavy fighter / night fighter.
Ju 388KHigh-altitude bomber.
Ju 388LPhoto-reconnaissance aircraft.

The fastest was the Ju 388L3 recon with Jumo 222E/F at an estimated speed of 444mph but when equipped with gun packs radar and flame dampers this dropped to about 432mph or so.

The only hope of intercepting the Mosquito ever was the Fw 187 built as Kurt Tank had intended with DB601/DB605 engines as a single seater or as a two seater with both crew facing forward. That chance was squandered.

If Willy Messerschmitt or Kurt Tank had of designed an exact Replica of the DeHaviland Mosquito in 1938 the Luftwaffe/RLM would have spent years forcing them into turning it into a two seat zerstoerer with rear armament and 60 degree dive bombing capability probably forced to use BRAMO 323 radials.

Hi, stripped- lighter Ju 88s , of course would not guarantee Mosquito interception. Eric brown reports that he managed 644km/h after the war on a captured G6. The radar had been removed but otherwise was complete. No MW 50 used.
I feel special prepared ju 88g6 s could manage a little better than that. Then would use tactics similar of the Fw190 s trying to intercept day recce Mosquitos. Patrol the expected target area at high altitude and dive on the incoming Mosquitos. It did not provide high rate of succes but some kills were scored . I believe a ju88 G6, even in standard form, would be as fast or faster than a Fw190A8
at 9000m.
Anyway would be an effort using a type already in production. He 219 was a new type still incapable to do the job.
I even i am not sure that operational he219 s were any faster than Ju88G6 standard. If the junkers was using Mw50,and erich says than some did, was certainly faster.
Heinkel was designing versions with 3rd crew member and defentive Mg131. That would slow the heinkel further.
Finally the ju 88G6 with the berlin radar would not need Mw50 to achieve 620-640km/h. Could the he219 use the Fug240? I am not sure
I agree the 1942 design of the Fw187 was the answer for the night fighter units, as the Fw 190 v13,v15,v16 was the answer for the day fighter units. Both using standard engines and simple airframes.

 

[nuuumannn]

The redesigned Fw187 was ordered in to production in 1942, then cancelled again. It certainly could be produced instead of Me410 and enter service in mid 1943 with Db 605 engines.

And you've just demonstrated exactly why it was a non-starter. The RLM wasn't interested.

Such a configuration was in service in limited numbers with reconnaissance units. I would add annular radiators , already developed for the He219. The Me262 NF was 2 years away"

But not with fighter units. Again, the 262 had been researched since 1940 and in 1943 was being readied for service, so by then, redoing the Me 410 how you describe is STILL not going to give you a production airframe until late 44 early 45 at the earliest. Might as well focus on the 262.

True, historicaly. But possible if cancel the Ta 154, He219, Me410 and use the resources for the much more promising Do335. Also a development effort focused on the NF variant. The Do335 deserved the effort because had competitive performance using the historicaly produced, badly outclassed german engines

And when do you plan to do this? Problem is with cancelling these projects is you already have resources invested in them that can't just be switched off, like a tap. The LW needs aircraft immediately. Doing so would leave it short in the interim, creating more of a problem. As for the Do 335, even by April 1945 and the end of the Reich, it simply was not ready for service. Throwing extra production capacity of other firms at it is not going to change that.

 

[pbehn]

Why didn't the Germans copy the Mosquito's construction techniques? Their chemists would have no trouble analysing the glue. .

The Mosquito wasn't just a good aircraft because of glue, and analysing glue doesn't tell you anything about how it is used, like temperature and pressure and curing times. Analysing the captured aircraft doesn't tell you all about how to select the woods used. The Mosquito wasn't a great aircraft because of a special glue or wood, that is incidental. The Mosquito was on a par with the P-51 in cooling drag design and overall aerodynamic cleanliness and slightly behind in choice of aerofoil profile.

 

[Shortround6]

The Mosquito wasn't just a good aircraft because of glue, and analysing glue doesn't tell you anything about how it is used, like temperature and pressure and curing times. Analysing the captured aircraft doesn't tell you all about how to select the woods used. The Mosquito wasn't a great aircraft because of a special glue or wood, that is incidental. The Mosquito was on a par with the P-51 in cooling drag design and overall aerodynamic cleanliness and slightly behind in choice of aerofoil profile.

Germans might have had a slight problem getting balsa wood from Ecuador/Honduras during the war.

 

[Denniss]

higher-powered or lightened Ju 88/188 or He 219 might be able to catch Mosquito bombers on their run-in path when loaded but getting them on their way back would be hard. For the Pathfinder/Recon mosquitos only the Me 262 had any chance of success if even radar-directed high-powered Bf 109 failed to achieve anything in daylight.

 

[pbehn]

Germans might have had a slight problem getting balsa wood from Ecuador/Honduras during the war.

That's what I never understand about the Mosquito proposition. Balsa may not have been considered to be a "strategic material" but as soon as your best night fighter, recon and pathfinder aircraft is made of it, it becomes "strategic" and it isnt laying around in every warehouse in UK.

 

[Glider]

I find it interesting that the title of the thread is 'Which was the best Night Fighter'. After 610 postings there seems to be a unanimous agreement, that it was the Mosquito

Is this the first time practically everyone has the same view?

 

[Shortround6]

That's what I never understand about the Mosquito proposition. Balsa may not have been considered to be a "strategic material" but as soon as your best night fighter, recon and pathfinder aircraft is made of it, it becomes "strategic" and it isnt laying around in every warehouse in UK.

There is what you tell the politicians/bureaucrats and then there is reality.

We went over this in an old thread. Balsa at the time was not grown on plantations and had to be harvested from the forest and Balsa trees in the forest are not closely spaced.
High quality straight grain spruce is not all that common either.

Wood as a strategic material has a long history, England used to get a fair amount of certain timber from the Baltic.
Coal came into use as a fuel in England (profitable to mine) when the glass industry was prohibited from using wood in their glass furnaces and causing an alarming deforestation in England that threatened naval construction.
One reason that the British wanted to hang onto the Colonies was that in the mid 1700s the RN was sourcing a lot of their masts and spars from the colonies (primarily Maine, then part of Massachusetts.) This was a 2nd source and should access to the Baltic be cut off then it would have become primary.

However the Air Ministry had taken pains in the late 20s and early 30s to move away from wood and to "all metal" airplanes, a fair number of which, while having metal structures were still fabric covered

 

[pbehn]

There is what you tell the politicians/bureaucrats and then there is reality.

We went over this in an old thread. Balsa at the time was not grown on plantations and had to be harvested from the forest and Balsa trees in the forest are not closely spaced.
High quality straight grain spruce is not all that common either.

Wood as a strategic material has a long history, England used to get a fair amount of certain timber from the Baltic.
Coal came into use as a fuel in England (profitable to mine) when the glass industry was prohibited from using wood in their glass furnaces and causing an alarming deforestation in England that threatened naval construction.
One reason that the British wanted to hang onto the Colonies was that in the mid 1700s the RN was sourcing a lot of their masts and spars from the colonies (primarily Maine, then part of Massachusetts.) This was a 2nd source and should access to the Baltic be cut off then it would have become primary.

However the Air Ministry had taken pains in the late 20s and early 30s to move away from wood and to "all metal" airplanes, a fair number of which, while having metal structures were still fabric covered

It has a VERY long history, the Yew tree is still rare in Europe because of this...… from wiki
The trade of yew wood to England for longbows was such that it depleted the stocks of yew over a huge area. The first documented import of yew bowstaves to England was in 1294.[citation needed] In 1470 compulsory practice was renewed, and hazel, ash, and laburnum were specifically allowed for practice bows. Supplies still proved insufficient, until by the Statute of Westminster 1472, every ship coming to an English port had to bring four bowstaves for every tun.[15] Richard III of England increased this to ten for every tun. This stimulated a vast network of extraction and supply, which formed part of royal monopolies in southern Germany and Austria. In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from two to eight pounds per hundred, and in 1510 the Venetians obtained sixteen pounds per hundred.
In 1507 the Holy Roman Emperor asked the Duke of Bavaria to stop cutting yew, but the trade was profitable, and in 1532 the royal monopoly was granted for the usual quantity "if there are that many". In 1562, the Bavarian government sent a long plea to the Holy Roman Emperor asking him to stop the cutting of yew and outlining the damage done to the forests by its selective extraction, which broke the canopy and allowed wind to destroy neighbouring trees. In 1568, despite a request from Saxony, no royal monopoly was granted because there was no yew to cut, and the next year Bavaria and Austria similarly failed to produce enough yew to justify a royal monopoly.

 

[Koopernic]

Hi, stripped- lighter Ju 88s , of course would not guarantee Mosquito interception. Eric brown reports that he managed 644km/h after the war on a captured G6. The radar had been removed but otherwise was complete. No MW 50 used.
I feel special prepared ju 88g6 s could manage a little better than that. Then would use tactics similar of the Fw190 s trying to intercept day recce Mosquitos. Patrol the expected target area at high altitude and dive on the incoming Mosquitos. It did not provide high rate of succes but some kills were scored . I believe a ju88 G6, even in standard form, would be as fast or faster than a Fw190A8
at 9000m.
Anyway would be an effort using a type already in production. He 219 was a new type still incapable to do the job.
I even i am not sure that operational he219 s were any faster than Ju88G6 standard. If the Junkers was using Mw50,and Erich says than some did, was certainly faster.
Heinkel was designing versions with 3rd crew member and defensive Mg131. That would slow the Heinkel further.
Finally the ju 88G6 with the berlin radar would not need Mw50 to achieve 620-640km/h. Could the he219 use the Fug240? I am not sure
I agree the 1942 design of the Fw187 was the answer for the night fighter units, as the Fw 190 v13,v15,v16 was the answer for the day fighter units. Both using standard engines and simple airframes.

I'm going to make some long arguments and reasonings.

You're possibly right in that the He 219, while slightly faster than a Ju 88 with the same engine, would probably also be incapable of catching a Mosquito.

The problem is that the 650kmh/407mph Ju 88G/Ju338J with Jumo 213E is not going to catch a 715kmh/440mph Mosquito. In fact even a Mosquito NF probably couldn't catch a Pathfinder or Photo Reconnaissance Unit Mosquito.

The He 219 may have been the quickest opportunity around to make something that could at least match a Mosquito as the DB603L came in to use. I will argue that this engine would have allowed a 440mph He 219 even if the Do 335 was clearly much faster.

Luftwaffe programs were always messed up by either:
1 Cancelling them in order to get something better in the future eg Fw 187 to get Ta 154, He 219 to get Do 335. Ju 89/Do 19 to get He 177
2 Cancelling them to standardise eg He 219 versus Ju 388
2 Forcing them to use inferior engines in more plentiful supply thus converting a superior aircraft producing an uncompetitive aircraft not worth building at all. Fe 187.
3 Trying to convert them into "Multi Roll Combat Aircraft". Schnell(fast) bombers that were also forced to become dive bombers and often zerstoerers as well that then had to become night fighters. As a result these aircraft were too heavy and slow.
4 Heavy bombers that were also dive bombers. He 177 with 4 separate engines. They waited till 1942 to rescind this.
5 Giving up on concepts like long range single seat fighter entirely in order to force every specification into the suffocating zerstoerer concept.

The DB603L with 2400hp and two stage supercharger was starting to make a showing in 1945 on the Ta 152C.

With the DB603L engine the Do 335 was estimated to achieve 790km/h/490mph but our He 219 with this engine might be able to match a Mosquito at 710/440mph.

The He 219 existed and didn't need a complicated leading edge radar array like the Do 335. Both Ju 88/388 and He 219 aircraft could match the Mosquito in speed with the Jumo 222E/F. This engine was benching at 2800hp with B4+MW50 in 1940 and put on the production program but then removed when the standard was raised to 3000hp.

The problem is that the 650kmh/407mph Ju 88G/Ju338J with Jumo 213E is not going to catch a 715kmh/440mph Mosquito. In fact even a Mosquito NF probably couldn't catch a Pathfinder or Photo Reconnaissance Unit Mosquito.

So really nothing is available though the Me 262, Ar 234 and Do 335 are close.

And of course the British weren't standing still, There was still a little development potential in the Merlin they could have done such as 3 speed supercharger and with considerable work on the Mosquito the Griffon could be adapted. By June 1945 the Derwent V (scaled down Nene) was flying in modified Meteor III. The aircraft integrated into the Meteor III with eventually became known as the Meteor IV and was as fast as the Me 262 and could fly to 46000ft. It would be able to perform the Mosquitos Night Fighter role with a second cockpit, and its daylight reconnaissance role. It might be able to do pathfinding with an external bomb/marker load.

 

[Vincenzo]

440 mph D.H. Mosquito in ww2? afaik wartime Mosquito topped at around 410 mph, only the Mk 34 was faster, ~425 mph, but was aoperational after the Germany surrender but did some recce flight in the Far east theater

 

[Koopernic]

It has a VERY long history, the Yew tree is still rare in Europe because of this...… from wiki
The trade of yew wood to England for longbows was such that it depleted the stocks of yew over a huge area. The first documented import of yew bowstaves to England was in 1294.[citation needed] In 1470 compulsory practice was renewed, and hazel, ash, and laburnum were specifically allowed for practice bows. Supplies still proved insufficient, until by the Statute of Westminster 1472, every ship coming to an English port had to bring four bowstaves for every tun.[15] Richard III of England increased this to ten for every tun. This stimulated a vast network of extraction and supply, which formed part of royal monopolies in southern Germany and Austria. In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from two to eight pounds per hundred, and in 1510 the Venetians obtained sixteen pounds per hundred.
In 1507 the Holy Roman Emperor asked the Duke of Bavaria to stop cutting yew, but the trade was profitable, and in 1532 the royal monopoly was granted for the usual quantity "if there are that many". In 1562, the Bavarian government sent a long plea to the Holy Roman Emperor asking him to stop the cutting of yew and outlining the damage done to the forests by its selective extraction, which broke the canopy and allowed wind to destroy neighbouring trees. In 1568, despite a request from Saxony, no royal monopoly was granted because there was no yew to cut, and the next year Bavaria and Austria similarly failed to produce enough yew to justify a royal monopoly.

My family come from generations of musical instrument makers. They made mandolins and violins. The immense collection of fine tropical timbers my cousin has is mind boggling. Almost any characteristic can be found. Woods that are good in compression, others good in tension, others that resist any parasite, light, heavy, strong. Some even provide lubrication some are grainless for practical purposes. Other have immense beauty and colour. John Harrison was able to make accurate clocks completely out of wood using timers with the correct properties.


One can see that sensible people were trying to implement sustainable harvesting of timber in medieval and renaissance Europe but short term greed over ruled that so they killed the golden goose. Mining and Timber interests are no longer able to corrupt common sense conservation measures and stewardship of forest in Western nations (Mostly gone now) but they do in Africa and Indonesia. Other monied interests do the influencing in the west. These are primarily banking and finance and their control is via ownership of media and big tech and their ability to bestow favourable media coverage on politicians "left wing" or "right wing" is an illusion. Why did Europeans (including the British) clear their forests when clearly many at the time were warning of their loss.

 

[pbehn]

My family come from generations of musical instrument makers. They made mandolins and violins. The immense collection of fine tropical timbers my cousin has is mind boggling. Almost any characteristic can be found. Woods that are good in compression, others good in tension, others that resist any parasite, light, heavy, strong. Some even provide lubrication some are grainless for practical purposes. Other have immense beauty and colour. John Harrison was able to make accurate clocks completely out of wood using timers with the correct properties.


One can see that sensible people were trying to implement sustainable harvesting of timber in medieval and renaissance Europe but short term greed over ruled that so they killed the golden goose. Mining and Timber interests are no longer able to corrupt common sense conservation measures and stewardship of forest in Western nations (Mostly gone now) but they do in Africa and Indonesia. Other monied interests do the influencing in the west. These are primarily banking and finance and their control is via ownership of media and big tech and their ability to bestow favourable media coverage on politicians "left wing" or "right wing" is an illusion. Why did Europeans (including the British) clear their forests when clearly many at the time were warning of their loss.

Among Yews many properties is it is extremely poisonous to livestock and associated with death. There were many reasons to cut it down.

 

[Koopernic]

440 mph D.H. Mosquito in ww2? afaik wartime Mosquito topped at around 410 mph, only the Mk 34 was faster, ~425 mph, but was aoperational after the Germany surrender but did some recce flight in the Far east theater

Maybe with the 21 psig boost or 25psig boost?

 

[Vincenzo]

Maybe with the 21 psig boost or 25psig boost?

probably much lower, mk 34 is high altitude recce it's highest speed would be to around 30,000 feet, high pressure is for low altitude flight

 

[Milosh]

During the "age of sail", the British had oak farms (forests) for the timber used in the construction of their warships. The limbs of the trees would be shaped while growing for frames.