Which was the best night fighter?

[Token]

As did the AAF with the B-29(B), not sure that was the official designation but that's how my uncle referred to them, they were the "strippers" used in the night attacks from Guam.

View attachment 603918

That is the AN/APG-15 radar. Several versions of this radar were used on different B-29 models and modifications, including an APG-15B in a twin .50 cal only rear gun position. In the Pacific these were a thing, but it never got to be a thing in Europe. A version of this was also done on the B-24, and while it reached the stage of ready for production it was not used in the field. It could have been, easily, if it became a requirement in Europe.

T!

 

[Ascent]

I know I'm biased being an ex crusader but for me the best nightfighter was The Nightfighter bar, the 14sqn all ranks bar. Quite why it was called the nightfighter I have no idea as 14 was traditionally a bomber squadron.

Also, I heard an interview recently with a Mosquito pilot who said that if they knew a 262 was hunting them they would dive for the deck as they knew that the jets fuel burn was much higher down there and it would force them to brake off contact earlier.

 

[Dana Bell]

Interesting to see this revived thread - it had gone quiet long before I joined the group. I noticed several planned books in the works on German nightfighters and American Beaufighters. Since I didn't recognize the author's call signs, I can't lokk them up on Amazon - were the books ever published?

Cheers,



Dana

 

[Koopernic]

There's a lot of 'had been working on', 'were anticipating aiming the guns', 'plans to use the telemetry' and not a lot of actual in service hardware in this response. The FuG 240 was in service but I believe the numbers were almost insignificant. None of them get over the issues I mentioned in my old post about closing speeds and having no upward firing guns in the Me262.

My comments about the possibility of the rear gunners getting a chance to shoot are more real than some realise as the RAF had introduced into service an automatic radar directed gun laying system towards the end of 1944. The numbers compared to the size of the main force were small but it was very accurate and well liked by the crews.
The bomber would ahve known the 262 nightfighters were coming and be able to open fire without a visual.

Village Inn radar gun laying radars in the rear of some very late war RAF heavy bombers was not automatic. The rear gunner had to find the target and then point it using an oscilloscope based sight, he was required to centre a pip. It did calculate and add in gun deflection I believe . Its the same with the AN/APG-15 used in some B-29B. Neither radar had full lock on. They probably had lock on for the range gate though could be a simple first echo detected. Full Lock on was possible at some point in the future.

Neither of these systems, village inn with its Browning 50 rear guns or the B-29B with 50 Browning or even the Americanised Hispano 20mm would have deterred a R100 missile attack as that attack would be launched outside of gun range. It was designed to be fired out of gun range. This is really the death nell of armed bombers using guns to shoot down fighters.
There was no point arming them and that was recognised in Canberra and the V force bombers. The technology that made village inn possible also made possible its obsolescence.

About 25 test launches for the R100 were carried out before the war ended.

I don't believe the R100 missile required a microwave radar but were designed for the Pauke Series. The "array" you see on Luftwaffe radars had lobe switching in which phase shifts were mechanically switched in to shift the beam alternately left/right and up/down. Operators would compare the strengths of return and estimate fairly accurately where the target was. Electronic evaluation of the return 'balance' would be about 3-4 times more accurate and allow non cantered targets to be measured. Certainly a fraction of a degree.

The missile would be fired automatically by the night fighters systems with a fixed time delay bursting fuse. The night fighters fire control systems took into account relative speed and closure rates and fired at the correct instant and lead. Versions with proximity fuse planed but probably not needed. The R100 "BS" used forward firing shaped charge firing incendiary pellets. There was also to be an infrared proximity fuse.

The FuG 240 Berlin series of radars came in variants FuG 240/N3, N1a, N4 etc and there was also the FuG 244,245,246 etc.

The 25 sets delivered and I believe 10 or possibly 25 installed in Ju 88G6 didn't have conical scan. That would come latter. Conical scan was used by the Germans since 1941 on Wurzburg C radars, Manheim radars and the 3 microwave radar type they managed to get in service. Probably 100 maybe 200. The Luftwaaffe had conical scan and automatic track lock systems on the ground. It took about 100 to 140 tubes instead of the 40-50 used in a Wurzburg including lock and anti jam circuits. These would need to be miniaturised. That technology already existed.

Slow rollout of microwave radars was due to bombing. The Harreous factory making the magnets and the Sanitas factory making the magnetrons in second half of 1944.

The to telemetry systems the Germans used were Bernhard/Bernhardine which was a beacon that transmitted bearing information to all night fighters. This was completely unjammable. Appended to the bearing was some telemetry such as location of the main bomber stream, weather etc. No used for individual data but potentially capable. The Other was FuG 136 Nachtfee which was used with the EGON 1 and EGON II blind bombing system to replaced the voice link with a completely jam resistant data link. It could not be spoofed though potentially could be blocked with difficulty.

So yes they were close with telemetry. The Minerva data system used in V2 testing transferred 64 data points (mainly pressure and heat)

As for the best night fighter
1 Mosquito. Simply because it was fast, had a well armoured windscreen and carried a lethal punch that gave no second chances.
2 Black Widow Slower but because an intense electronic warfare environment, such as the Luftwaffe ace, it needs 3 crew and like the Black widow would be better.
3 The Ju 88G7 might be better than the Mosquito in certain circumstances due to the 3 crew I think the Ju 88G7 could probably manage 386 mph. The Ju 388J3 could manage 433mph and handle a B-29. (It was built for this)

The Ar 234C and Ar234P night fighter variants, firing R100, would be good as well, though of course they didnt enter service.

 

[drgondog]

If the P-38M is considered, then so should the P-61C. At 430 mph and a ceiling of 41,000 ft, the P-61C was considerably faster and higher flying than the Mosquito and faster than the P-38M. However, its heavier design probably did impact manueverability. Apparently it did have speed brakes to prevent overshoots. From what I understand, neither the P-61C nor the P-38M performed any night fighter operations in WWII.

I got into this one late. My father commanded the 318th NFS out of Hamilton Field in late 1947 before we moved to Japan in 1948 where he took command of 35th FG.
The P-61C, according to him, was a pretty good airplane - but the 318th was equipped with the lesser capable P-61B. Both P-61 types were inferior to the P/F-82 in all respects save armament - and initial rate of turn - which the Spoilerons greatly augmented. That said, it lost too much speed in the turn to compete.

Arguably it was as good as the Mosquito below 20,000 feet, but the real issue with the P-61 was crew training in both systems and weather in the ETO. From what I have read the Ju 88 was arguably the best night fighter of the war.

 

[Milosh]

I got into this one late. My father commanded the 318th NFS out of Hamilton Field in late 1947 before we moved to Japan in 1948 where he took command of 35th FG.
The P-61C, according to him, was a pretty good airplane - but the 318th was equipped with the lesser capable P-61B. Both P-61 types were inferior to the P/F-82 in all respects save armament - and initial rate of turn - which the Spoilerons greatly augmented. That said, it lost too much speed in the turn to compete.

Arguably it was as good as the Mosquito below 20,000 feet, but the real issue with the P-61 was crew training in both systems and weather in the ETO. From what I have read the Ju 88 was arguably the best night fighter of the war.

Now you have gone and done it.

 

[Koopernic]

I got into this one late. My father commanded the 318th NFS out of Hamilton Field in late 1947 before we moved to Japan in 1948 where he took command of 35th FG.
The P-61C, according to him, was a pretty good airplane - but the 318th was equipped with the lesser capable P-61B. Both P-61 types were inferior to the P/F-82 in all respects save armament - and initial rate of turn - which the Spoilerons greatly augmented. That said, it lost too much speed in the turn to compete.

Arguably it was as good as the Mosquito below 20,000 feet, but the real issue with the P-61 was crew training in both systems and weather in the ETO. From what I have read the Ju 88 was arguably the best night fighter of the war.

Do you know if the spoilerons on the P-61 were hydraulically boosted?

 

[davparlr]

Do you know if the spoilerons on the P-61 were hydraulically boosted?

Americas Hundred Thousand and Fighter Conference do not indicate hydraulics were used for spoilerons.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I used to think the P61 was the best purpose built night fighter, but it was kind of slow (by 1945 standards).

Did the P-61 ever engage a target at night?

 

[GrauGeist]

From what I have read the Ju 88 was arguably the best night fighter of the war.

Agreed - and the only rival to the Ju88 would have been the He219 "Uhu" if the kinks were worked out.

 

[Koopernic]

Did the P-61 ever engage a target at night?

The dogfights TV series had an episode. A German Night fighter experten in a radarless Me 410 was shot down by a P-61.
The Me 410 pilot had flown 6 missions that night and was exhausted and forgot to turn his landing lights off which was the real cause of him being shot down.

What was notable was that the P61 radar was not as fancy as one would think. There was no PPI display for instance and the multiple screens were no better than the Germans had on their much longer wavelength radars. The American radar had much more range and due to the narrow beam width range was not affected by ground clutter when flying low but you had to wait for a mechanical scan to complete.

The Me 410 never received a radar fit out. Too few were produced to justify taking a team of electrical engineers out of the development loop.

There are pictures of an Me 410 with Lorenz Hohtenweil radar which was a 50cm FLAK radar that became an airborne anti shipping radar as well as PPI radar for smaller German ships such as torpedo boats and could also be retracted into a u-boat conning tower.

This radar had lobe switching so Ju 188, Me 410 and Fw 200 equipped with it could carry out night attacks. The Fw 200 was the main type using it.

The Mosquito is clearly the best night fighter. It could intercept anything and due to its speed it could actually get to the bomber stream. Many German night fighters had to have burned out engines removed as the closed too slowely on the bomber stream.

 

[syscom3]

Agreed - and the only rival to the Ju88 would have been the He219 "Uhu" if the kinks were worked out.

The P-61 was superior to the He-219.

 

[syscom3]

Did the P-61 ever engage a target at night?

Of course they did.

 

[Glider]

Village Inn radar gun laying radars in the rear of some very late war RAF heavy bombers was not automatic. The rear gunner had to find the target and then point it using an oscilloscope based sight, he was required to centre a pip. It did calculate and add in gun deflection I believe . Its the same with the AN/APG-15 used in some B-29B. Neither radar had full lock on. They probably had lock on for the range gate though could be a simple first echo detected.

You are of course correct in the technical details but the important point was that the Village Inn equipped turrets could open fire before they visually saw the fighters. Whereas the fighters to the best of my knowledge had to see the bomber. So at night the bomber could open fire first.

Neither of these systems, village inn with its Browning 50 rear guns or the B-29B with 50 Browning or even the Americanised Hispano 20mm would have deterred a R100 missile attack as that attack would be launched outside of gun range. It was designed to be fired out of gun range. This is really the death nell of armed bombers using guns to shoot down fighters.
There was no point arming them and that was recognised in Canberra and the V force bombers. The technology that made village inn possible also made possible its obsolescence.

Yet the USAF and Russian Airforce were more than happy to equip their bombers with guns. An important point is reliability. As the USAF found in Vietnam early air to air missile were horribly unreliable. To assume that a late 1940's missile would work effectively is a big assumption.

 

[Glider]

Ps Who said that the RAF abandoned rear gun defences

 

[GrauGeist]

The P-61 was superior to the He-219.

It would depend on which version of the P-61 versus which version of the He219.

They were both fast, heavily armed and capable of tracking down their quarry.

 

[Koopernic]

It would depend on which version of the P-61 versus which version of the He219.

They were both fast, heavily armed and capable of tracking down their quarry.

I think though both the P-61 and He 219 were mythical planes in 1944. The turbo charged P-61C didnt exist so we are left with the 368mph P-61B. The He 219 Uhu was only ever powered with the DB603A of 1750hp or the DB603AA which was the same engine optimised with different supercharger settings s for higher altitudes. The 448 mph He 219 was to be powered by the Jumo 222A/B and engine which remained a prototype (albeit with nearly 300 produced and which was rescheduled for production in 1944)

The He 219 was likely never fitted with the DB603E which had more power and a fundamentally better supercharger not any of the other engines that could have made it into a rocket ship such as the DB603L and LA or Jumo 213E.

Opposition from Luftwaffe management in favour of the Ju 88 series (Ju 881G1, G6 and G7) as well as Ju 388J sealed its fate. When it came out the He 219 was considerably faster than the Ju 88G1 but the G6 and G7 closed the gap. It will remain a favourite of mine for its ejection seats which saved many a crew mans life.

The Ju 88 series received more avionics development which meant that late war Ju 88 had tail warning radar wheras He 219 did not. You had a choice of tail warning radar and ejection seat, not both.

The Do 335 was being developed into a radar equiped night fighter. A phased array microwave radar that worked through wooden leading edges had been ground tested.

 

[Milosh]

It should be mentioned that the He219 only reached its 400mph plus speed with modifications > no radar antenna, exhaust shrouds removed and weapons decreased.

 

[Denniss]

He 219 A-7 built from 12/44 was equipped with DB 603E, they also built 5 preseries 219D with Jumo 213E (plagued by engine quirks)
The 603AA was optimized for higher alts so lost power down low but kepts its max power to ~7.5km instead of 6 so with all else the same it should be faster than 603A-equipped versions.

 

[Koopernic]

You are of course correct in the technical details but the important point was that the Village Inn equipped turrets could open fire before they visually saw the fighters. Whereas the fighters to the best of my knowledge had to see the bomber. So at night the bomber could open fire first.
Yet the USAF and Russian Airforce were more than happy to equip their bombers with guns. An important point is reliability. As the USAF found in Vietnam early air to air missile were horribly unreliable. To assume that a late 1940's missile would work effectively is a big assumption.

The same radar technology that allowed the RAF to develop and deploy Village Inn gun laying radar for the rear turret of its bombers also allowed the Luftwaffe to develop radar that could aim and fire guns of a night fighter. That is exactly what they were doing. A series of devices referred to as "Pauke SD", "Eule", Elfe" and "Oberon". The fighter will always have a bigger more accurate radar antenna, more and bigger guns than the bomber. That is why Britain never wasted space on the Canberra or V bombers for rear armament.

FuG 247 Bremerhaven

A combined AI and gun laying radar developed by Siemens. Operated on a wavelength of 3cm with a maximum and minimum range of 6.25 miles and 500 ft, a search angle of 1000 in both azimuth and elevation, a measuring accuracy of +/- 0.10 and a weight of 264 lbs (120 kg). Utilised a rotating and 'nodding' parabolic reflector and used a manufactured pictorial display on a single CRT, in addition to feeding range and positional data to an EZ 42 gyro gun sight. No examples had reached operational service by the end of the war.

FuG 248 Eule

A radar blind firing device developed by GEMA. Eule operated on a frequency of 10,000 MHz and had a maximum range of 1.25 miles. The device used funnel shaped aerials built into the wings of the aircraft (eg Me 262 and the range data it provided was automatically fed into an EZ 42 gyro gun sight. Was replacing EG 3 ELFE in service at the end of the war.

EG 3 ELFE

An automatic firing device developed by FFO for use in combination with FuG 216, 217, 218 and 219. Had a number of range settings and would automatically fire the guns when an echo indicated that the target was at a pre-determined distance,

There is little difference between trimming in the gun lead into the reticule of a gyro sight and trimming it into the auto-pilot.

The Luftwaffe was developing telemetry to control the autopilot of a nightfighter and then have that nightfighters radar lock on to the target and trim the firing solution into the autopilot and fire the guns or rockets automatically.


The Allies had stolen a March on the Germans in microwave radar but by mid 1944 production was beginning only to be shut down by bombing to the key magnetron manufacturer Sanitas and the key magnet maker Hareaous. About 100-200 managed to get into service. By the end of the war the Germans had 9cm, 3cm, 2.5cm magnetrons, some up to 500kW.

Village in was an interesting and clever weapon but it would be countered and irrelevant with a short time.