Which was the best night fighter?

[Glider]

He177 as a night fighter?

 

[parsifal]

Has to be a mistake...he 177 as one of the best NFs???

 

[ivanotter]

He-177 as a night fighter? Must be a typo. (Maybe as a torch for others to see with? - sorry. that is naughty)

OK, serious. Has anyone mentioned the Do-17/215? According to Theo Boitens' book, Nachtjagd (it is in English, btw), these were used, although few in numbers.

I have not seen Corsair and Hellcats as dedicated night fighters. Have I missed it?

How much flying at night happened anyway in the Pacific comnpared to ETO?

Ivan

 

[Glider]

There were dedicated Corsair and Hellcat nightfighters as well as the Firefly, Hurricane and others. However the object was to identify the best not to produce a list.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I have not seen Corsair and Hellcats as dedicated night fighters. Have I missed it?

F4U-2 was a dedicated nightfighter

F4U2 History

F6F-3E was a dedicated night fighter

F6F-3E (41302) | Gallery

R Leonard has a good post on the F6F-3E

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-requests/usn-carrier-night-fighters-1184.html

 

[ivanotter]

Glider: spot-on. Do-215 was probably not in the league.

FlyBoy: Thanks for the info. I was not aware of the extent night operations were carried in the Pacific. Much more than what I thought. Probably getting a bit too fixed on ETO sometimes.

Yours,

 

[Erich]

sorry but the Me 262 was about as dangerous to the pilots of Kommando Welter as the Bf 110G and Ju 88G were due to in-experience or experience pilots of taking off or landing. there are many reports of the Welters unit stating the jet was the wave of the future. the jet was not catchable at night nor could BC gunners turn the turrets/guns fast enough to track but can be said of same for 8th and 15th US AF crews during combat with the 262A-1a. Introduction of the jet was obviously too late to turn the tide day/night.

 

[Glider]

Erich
If the jet was flying too fast to be caught, wouldn't it be right to say that it would be flying too fast at night to track and shoot down the enemy?

If your thundering along at 400+mph and the target bomber is doing approx. 200mph with the visibility at night the 262 wuld never get a bead

 

[Erich]

that might well depend if we are talking a radarless or Neptun later Berlin AI radar'd 262.

before the end of the war there were tech trials with the new B-2 with the Schrag-waffen installation.

this gets into the what if the new 262 twin seater with streamlined canopy and internal fuel cells would of been able to handle the job of chasing down BC heavies instead of hit and miss attacks on LSNF or Mossie intruders with the 262A-1a. in any case the 262 jet had incredible potential

 

[cimmee]

that might well depend if we are talking a radarless or Neptun later Berlin AI radar'd 262.

before the end of the war there were tech trials with the new B-2 with the Schrag-waffen installation.

this gets into the what if the new 262 twin seater with streamlined canopy and internal fuel cells would of been able to handle the job of chasing down BC heavies instead of hit and miss attacks on LSNF or Mossie intruders with the 262A-1a. in any case the 262 jet had incredible potential

Potential?

That's like looking at the prom queen, jerkin your gerkin and saying you had carnal relations with her in the same area...

The Swallow was junk.

Shall I list her shortcomings?

 

[Erich]

I can list her assets mr no it all in fact one up on ya your attitude towards me on the TA 152H just got your butt kicked off

 

[FLYBOYJ]

cimmeeee nice avatar!

 

[parsifal]

I swear that little twirp was one of the most annoying members I have met....Would say anything without thinking and had the most annoying attitude to boot.

Sorry, I know we are not supposed to do that, but erich you did us all a favour....

 

[syscom3]

Erich, there were B24 and B17 night ops in the ETO. I think they were called "carpetbaggers".

Did the LW have any success with them?

 

[Erich]

Hiya Sys

yes against all black US bombers at night in May and June of 1944 then the special purpose 2461st of the 15th AF had all black B-24's on their agent/leaflet and bombings drops in Austria, Hungary and north Italy the LW in this case NJG 100 intercepted the B-24's in 1945 with their Ju 88G-6's.

the 492nd bg became the premier in the 8th turned to daylight ops and got their butts kicked sadly and then went back to night ops and was split up to create smaller formations

 

[Glider]

that might well depend if we are talking a radarless or Neptun later Berlin AI radar'd 262.

before the end of the war there were tech trials with the new B-2 with the Schrag-waffen installation.

this gets into the what if the new 262 twin seater with streamlined canopy and internal fuel cells would of been able to handle the job of chasing down BC heavies instead of hit and miss attacks on LSNF or Mossie intruders with the 262A-1a. in any case the 262 jet had incredible potential

Radar or not the Me262 would have to slow down to make the attack. The firing had to be done under visual conditions and as you are aware visibility at night is very short and if you are going much faster than the target you will be past it before you can fire. Even Beaufighters intercepting German bombers had to beware of overshooting the target.

Additional Thoughts
Just been thinking about this and realised that the Me262 would actually be at a slight disadvantage against Heavy Bombers as they didn't have the upward firing guns and therefore would not be able to take advantage of the blind spot. As a result the bomber gunners may get a shot in and one 303 is almost certain to take out a jet engine, as the blades would shatter putting the 262 at great risk.

There is no doubt that the definitive 262 nightfighter had potential but that would have been wasted going after the heavy bombers. Ju88's and Me110's had more than sufficient speed and firepower to target the heavies, the faster Mossie bombers would be a more valuble target

 

[Yiannis]

Heinkel 219 Uhu was the best

 

[Koopernic]

Radar or not the Me262 would have to slow down to make the attack. The firing had to be done under visual conditions and as you are aware visibility at night is very short and if you are going much faster than the target you will be past it before you can fire. Even Beaufighters intercepting German bombers had to beware of overshooting the target.

Additional Thoughts
Just been thinking about this and realised that the Me262 would actually be at a slight disadvantage against Heavy Bombers as they didn't have the upward firing guns and therefore would not be able to take advantage of the blind spot. As a result the bomber gunners may get a shot in and one 303 is almost certain to take out a jet engine, as the blades would shatter putting the 262 at great risk.

There is no doubt that the definitive 262 nightfighter had potential but that would have been wasted going after the heavy bombers. Ju88's and Me110's had more than sufficient speed and firepower to target the heavies, the faster Mossie bombers would be a more valuble target

The Luftwaffe had long been working on blind fire radar and came with several sets which had names like Pauke, Pauke S and Pauke SD. The lobe switching radars were were capable of centering a target fairly well.

However the development of microwave radars such as the FuG 240 Berlin radars gave another route. No only were they anticipating aiming the guns but having the radar direct the autopilot to aim the guns in a high speed firing pass. There were also plans to use telemetry to direct the aircraft via its autopilot so the whole interception was automatic. The Luftwaffe had several jam proof telemetry systems such as Bernhard/Bernhardine.

gebhard adders Talks a bit about it in his history of the German Night fighter Force.

There was also the R100 missile. An unguided rocket, I think about 22 cm with a time or proximity fuse fired from about 1.2 km away. About 25 were test fired.

The Arado 234 was likely to be a better night fighter.

 

[Glider]

The Luftwaffe had long been working on blind fire radar and came with several sets which had names like Pauke, Pauke S and Pauke SD. The lobe switching radars were were capable of cantering a target fairly well.

However the development of microwave radars such as the FuG 240 Berlin radars gave another route. No only were they anticipating aiming the guns but having the radar direct the autopilot to aim the guns in a high speed firing pass. There were also plans to use telemetry to direct the aircraft via its autopilot so the whole interception was automatic. The Luftwaffe had several jam proof telemetry systems such as Bernhard/Bernhardine.

gebhard adders Talks a bit about it in his history of the German Night fighter Force.

There was also the R100 missile. An unguided rocket, I think about 22 cm with a time or proximity fuse fired from about 1.2 km away. About 25 were test fired.

The Arado 234 was likely to be a better night fighter.

There's a lot of 'had been working on', 'were anticipating aiming the guns', 'plans to use the telemetry' and not a lot of actual in service hardware in this response. The FuG 240 was in service but I believe the numbers were almost insignificant. None of them get over the issues I mentioned in my old post about closing speeds and having no upward firing guns in the Me262.

My comments about the possibility of the rear gunners getting a chance to shoot are more real than some realise as the RAF had introduced into service an automatic radar directed gun laying system towards the end of 1944. The numbers compared to the size of the main force were small but it was very accurate and well liked by the crews.
The bomber would ahve known the 262 nightfighters were coming and be able to open fire without a visual.

 

[Peter Gunn]

*SNIP*

My comments about the possibility of the rear gunners getting a chance to shoot are more real than some realise as the RAF had introduced into service an automatic radar directed gun laying system towards the end of 1944.

*SNIP*

As did the AAF with the B-29(B), not sure that was the official designation but that's how my uncle referred to them, they were the "strippers" used in the night attacks from Guam.