Who made the best Subs in WW2

In Chatham dockyard there is an A class submarine you can visit. The guides were all ex RN submariners from WW2 and they all agreed that Das Boot was a very accurate reflection of was at sea in any submarine.

The A class came out just after WW2 but had the same technology and is worth a visit.

Clave said:

I'd have to feel sympathy and respect for all submarine crews, it's one place you would never get me to go...

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Agreed

Well I definately learned something new from this discussion. All the while I thought that Germany's torpedoes were pretty much adequate, but then I realized that they weren't exactly pristine. Japan had the best torpedoes of the war, as we all know, and their subs were quite good, but their submarine tactics and doctrine pretty much limited their application and that's why they had such limited sucess against Allied shipping. Of course, the Atlantic war did cause them trouble as well, since the Allies invested lavishly to make new weapons and tactics to put down the U-boat menace and it was used with deadly effect against Japanese submarines (they lost 75% of all subs during the war, similiar to the Kriegsmarine on the other ocean).

Anyway, getting back on topic. I checked out some of the statistics regarding the major U-boat types and American Gato and Balao class submarines and I've noted that there's one advantage that the German subs had over the American. German subs could dive deeper than any American sub of the era. Gato class submarines had a maximum depth of 90 meters (around 300 feet) and the superior Balao had a maximum depth of 120 meters (around 400 feet). Meanwhile, even the pathetic Type II U-boats could dive up to 150 meters and the far superior Type VII and IX could go down to depths of 220 meters (722 feet) and 230 meters (755 feet) respectively.

So I have a question for you all. Just how big a difference does maximum depth really make when considering how good a submarine is? I know that that alone isn't enough to make them the best, but it is a fact to consider, right?

Well, any responses?

Hmmm, I highly suspect the figures of 90m and 120m respectively for the Gato's and Balao's are maximum rated depths. They could certainly go deeper. German U-boats weren't crap by any means, but the type VII was designed as a coastal submarine, similar in that respect to the modern Type 209. German crews knew how to get the most out of their boats (and still do).

When it comes to depth in general, the deeper the better. However, this not only aids the submarine in the evasion process, but can actually hinder it's ability to detect surface threats as well. Even the best sonar equipment is effected to some extent by the ocean's thermal layers. It's a tricky balance. As the saying goes though: Run silent, run deep. 8)

I guess you're right about the depth making it harder for sonar to detect surface threats, but if I'm not mistaken, many subs during the war didn't have sonar (at least, not during the first half). All subs had some kind of hydrophone equipment but I'm not sure whether or not the depth of the sub could affect it.

Of course I do agree that running silent would be as important, if not more so, than being deep. Since no matter how deep you are, if you're making a lot of noise, they can still find you and depth charge you to kingdom come!

When U-boats coud basically dive to a depth about double or more of any other sub in the world it's pretty much case closed.

Case closed as in what? They're totally better?

Yeah they're totally better! Which sub would YOU want to be on when a squadron of pissed off destroyers start sounding and lobbing depth charges- one that could dive to 3-400 feet or 900 feet?

You make a very convincing arguement!

I truely do believe that Germany was leading the world in U-Boot technology. Just check out the Type XXI. They were superior to anything that could go underwater, however they were too little too late as were most innovative Germany designs of anything.

The Type 21 was the best sub of the war beyond question.

However if you take that out of the equation and ask which was the best then my vote would go to the American Fleet submarines. These were modern boats with radar and all other mod cons, an excellent range and were quite fast with a heavy warload.

The type VII had the sole advantage of being able to go very deep but if picked up on the surface as most were then this was of little benefit. It wasn't for nothing that they were called black coffins. The Type IX was a better all round boat but its equipment was similar to the VII.

The US boats had a better all round advantage.

Glider said:

The Type 21 was the best sub of the war beyond question.

However if you take that out of the equation and ask which was the best then my vote would go to the American Fleet submarines. These were modern boats with radar and all other mod cons, an excellent range and were quite fast with a heavy warload.

The type VII had the sole advantage of being able to go very deep but if picked up on the surface as most were then this was of little benefit. It wasn't for nothing that they were called black coffins. The Type IX was a better all round boat but its equipment was similar to the VII.

The US boats had a better all round advantage.

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I will agree with that, but with what the Type VII was lacking they made up for in the Wolfpack tactics, atleast in the beginning.

There is no doubt that the use of the Wolfpack tactics was an excellent plan A, the problem was that the germans didn't have a plan B. Once the allied forces had the equipment to deal with the Wolfpack, the germans were always on the defensive and never caught up.
There is no reason why they couldn't have developed the type XXI a couple of years earlier and then we would have been in real trouble.

If I am allowed to put my money on something, I would still choose Type VIIb in early stage, Gato in the middle stage and XXI or XXIII for the late stage.
But the most advanced submarine wasn´t Type XXI, this title doubtless belongs to Type XXVII true air independent Walter subs with very high submerged speed (25-27kts) and decent range.
I only have to confirm the worries about german torpedoes for the early (NOT INITIALLY) stage of ww2, particularly for the year 1940 and for electric torpedoes with magnetic pistols. The original steam driven ones were much better and reliable (1939-1940). Japanese submarine torpedoes are average, the vaunted long lance wasn´t used on subs.
British submarine torpedoes were average but reliable.
Italian submarine torpedoes were highly unreliable.
US torpedoes share a lot with german ones, they developed to a higher degree in reliability. Later in the war, both navies fielded very advanced torpedoes (partly with passive homing). US and british submarines also had more sophisticated torpedo calculators on board, german ones had more sophisticated sonar and from mid 1942 on quite advanced passive radar detectors. The dive depth is a vital point. The deepest recovered dive of ww2 was accidently a Type VIIC41 in the Mediterranean, diving to approx. 352m (1.165 ft), hitting the seabed and damaging the boat heavily. It´s close to a wonder that the boat sustained the stress and returned to surface.