Who operated the machine guns in the nose of a B-17G?

[bdefen]

Saw this photo in another thread today. Cut out this piece of it. Which crew members would operate those three machine guns in the nose of a B-17G? I assume the bombardier would run one of the set. Who else would crowd into the nose?

 

[mjfur]

The Navigator was postioned up front as well.

 

[bdefen]

Oh, that's right. The navigator's "office" was up front, under that clear dome. I guess that was used for celestial navigation purposes. I did see where these two weapons were called "cheek guns". Would the navigator operate both of them? He'd sure be stepping lively during air combat.

My late uncle, an M.I.T.-educated electrical engineer, and the son of an Armenian Genocide refugee, was a navigator on an 8th Air Force B-17 flying out of England. He was wounded in his upper arm by shrapnel on his 10th or so mission during what my aunt described as (sic) a nuisance bombing of "entertainment" districts in the Paris suburbs. Since German-occupied Paris itself was not bombed by the Allies, I guess the idea was to catch them nearby with their pants down. He'd show us kids his upper arm scars, and describe how he could feel some of the shrapnel still in there. (I've never read of such missions.....maybe one of you scholars out there know whether those missions actually occurred)

This wounding experience scared all of the sh*t out of my uncle, according to my aunt. He was hospitalized for a while, and declared again fit for duty. He was offered a choice of heading down to the Southwestern Pacific to join the B-29 groups being assembled there, presumably to be a navigator, or, an assignment operating a USAAF altimeter calibration shop....not sure if stateside or in the war theater (His electrical engineering degree provided him some options). Needless to say, he took the altimeter calibration shop job. Finished the war doing that. Served in the Idaho Air National Guard through the 1960s, attaining the rank of Major. Worked for 40 years for our local electrical utility, and was one of the architects of the Snake River Hydropower system. John Nazareth Haroian.

 

[Snautzer01]

John Nazareth Haroian | American Air Museum in Britain

This John Nazareth Haroian ?

A bomber crew of the 388th Bomb Group with their B-17 Flying Fortress (serial number 42-30177) nicknamed "Charlene". Printed caption on reverse: '61552 AC- Crew of the 562nd Bomb Squadron, 388th Bomb Group, beside the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress "Charlene". England. 30 August 1943. Standing left to right are: 2nd Lt John N Haroian, Boise, Idaho; 1st Lt Charles Bliss, Los Angeles, California; 2nd Lt Vernon D Duncan, Columbus, Ohio; 2nd Lt Bernard J Quenneville, Hadley, Mass. Kneeling left to right: S/Sgt Robert E Brailey, Woonsocket, RI; T/Sgt Albert N Brown, Great Falls, Mont; S/Sgt Herman B Mays, Terre Haute, Ind; S/Sgt Lawrence H Ruddell, Wausau, Wisc; S/Sgt Edmund W Wilbert, Westlake, Ohio; T/Sgt Henry G Rotell, Riwabik, Minn. US Air force Photo.'

Baugher: Boeing B-17F-90-BO 42-30177 to 803rd BS(P) at Oulton early 1944 as radio countermeasures aircraft, fitted with Mandrel sets and 9 Carpet sets. Presented to Free French general M. P. Koening by General Eisenhower. Named *Bir Hakim* and *Charlene* at verious times. Served postwar with the French High Commissioner at Wahn, Germany.
Later to French Institut Geographique National as F-BGSG. Was used for spares, and remains were scrapped Aug 1973

Page 395 WWII US Air Force Photos - Fold3 2Lt (later Lt Col) John Nazareth Haroian (navigator) was born on sept 11th, 1922 - passed away on feb 3rd, 1993 (15 missions between 17 july and 9 sept 43)

 

[pbehn]

Oh, that's right. The navigator's "office" was up front, under that clear dome. I guess that was used for celestial navigation purposes. I did see where these two weapons were called "cheek guns". Would the navigator operate both of them? He'd sure be stepping lively during air combat.

.

There re many versions of the cheek guns if you google for images you can see. The early versions were more side facing but could only be operated by one person, later they were more forward facing mainly for a head on attack.

 

[bdefen]

John Nazareth Haroian | American Air Museum in Britain

This John Nazareth Haroian ?

View attachment 607580

A bomber crew of the 388th Bomb Group with their B-17 Flying Fortress (serial number 42-30177) nicknamed "Charlene". Printed caption on reverse: '61552 AC- Crew of the 562nd Bomb Squadron, 388th Bomb Group, beside the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress "Charlene". England. 30 August 1943. Standing left to right are: 2nd Lt John N Haroian, Boise, Idaho; 1st Lt Charles Bliss, Los Angeles, California; 2nd Lt Vernon D Duncan, Columbus, Ohio; 2nd Lt Bernard J Quenneville, Hadley, Mass. Kneeling left to right: S/Sgt Robert E Brailey, Woonsocket, RI; T/Sgt Albert N Brown, Great Falls, Mont; S/Sgt Herman B Mays, Terre Haute, Ind; S/Sgt Lawrence H Ruddell, Wausau, Wisc; S/Sgt Edmund W Wilbert, Westlake, Ohio; T/Sgt Henry G Rotell, Riwabik, Minn. US Air force Photo.'

Baugher: Boeing B-17F-90-BO 42-30177 to 803rd BS(P) at Oulton early 1944 as radio countermeasures aircraft, fitted with Mandrel sets and 9 Carpet sets. Presented to Free French general M. P. Koening by General Eisenhower. Named *Bir Hakim* and *Charlene* at verious times. Served postwar with the French High Commissioner at Wahn, Germany.
Later to French Institut Geographique National as F-BGSG. Was used for spares, and remains were scrapped Aug 1973

Page 395 WWII US Air Force Photos - Fold3 2Lt (later Lt Col) John Nazareth Haroian (navigator) was born on sept 11th, 1922 - passed away on feb 3rd, 1993 (15 missions between 17 july and 9 sept 43)

My God, that's him. Guess he was hurt on his 15th mission, right? Less than two months with the group. This website and forum never ceases to amaze me with the knowledge and resources displayed by all of you. He and Aunt Mary had 13 kids, 10 boys and three girls, my cousins I grew up with here in Boise. Aunt Mary was my dad's older sister. Uncle Johnny! His second oldest son, Doug, @ 71, REALLY favors John. Most of the other kids looked like the blend of John and Mary. 10 are alive today.

I clicked on the link and registered with Fold3.

Is it possible for me to save a copy of the photo and your description to share with my cousins? (UPDATE, I WAS ABLE TO DOWNLOAD THE PHOTO, AND SAVE IN JPEG AND PNG..COPIED THE DESCRIPTION ABOVE AND HAVE SAVED, AS WELL. THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!)


Thank you so much for sharing this.

 

[pbehn]

Paris was certainly bombed Heavy civilian casualties as the Allies bomb Paris

 

[Snautzer01]

you can download a copy from fold 3 or copy the picture from here. Stand on picture right click mouse save

His ship B-17F-90-BO 42-30177 [F-BGSG] - Les Demoiselles de Creil: Les B-17 de l'IGN

 

[Snautzer01]

Haroian = Haroiad

Missions de guerre de "Charlène":


1- 17 juillet 1943: Amsterdam


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), C.M. Zettick (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


2- 26 juillet 1943: Hanovre


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), C.M. Zettick (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


3- 2 septembre 1943: Bruxelles


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


4- 3 septembre 1943: Melun


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


5- 6 septembre 1943: Stuttgart


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


(abandon: endommagé à un moteur)


6- 7 septembre 1943: Watten


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


Abandon à 8h15 suite à une panne moteurs 1 et 4 (pression huile faible)


7- 9 septembre 1943: Paris


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


8- 27 septembre 1943: Emden


Equipage: H.W. Moore (pilote), D.B. Herbert (copilote), R.L. Garretson (navigateur), J.F. Houston (Bombardier), W.M. Fleener (Radio), M.G. Meyers (mitrailleur dorsal), H.M. Gaines ( Mitrailleur ventral), J.J. Kirby (Latéral droit), L.B. Watson (Latéral Gauche), C. Peak (mitrailleur de queue)


9- 2 octobre 1943: Emden


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)

i think he got hurt mission 7, 9 septembre 1943: Paris

 

[bdefen]

If I'm reading this right (and my French is generally limited to "Chevrolet Coupe", "Bordeaux", and "Roquefort"), did they have to abandon a couple missions because of engine malfunction? Also it appears that Uncle John's last mission was over Paris on September 9th, right? I wonder if my aunt's description of the bombing of the "entertainment" districts was correct.

All wonderful information!

I'll apologize for my mistaken statement about Paris not being bombed by the Allies. Paris did not suffer anywhere near the same destruction of the major German targets, though, did it. I was under the misguided impression that the Allies decided not to bomb Paris. I stand corrected.

 

[bdefen]

you can download a copy from fold 3 or copy the picture from here. Stand on picture right click mouse save

His ship B-17F-90-BO 42-30177 [F-BGSG] - Les Demoiselles de Creil: Les B-17 de l'IGN

View attachment 607581

Got it saved. Thanks!

 

[fubar57]

A bit more here with alternative name...42-30177 / Charlene aka BIR-HACKEIM | B-17 Bomber Flying Fortress – The Queen Of The Skies

 

[Snautzer01]

Also it appears that Uncle John's last mission was over Paris on September 9th, right? I wonder if my aunt's description of the bombing of the "entertainment" districts was correct.

.

No he flew another 9- 2 october 1943: Emden and perhaps others with a different plane. Bombing of Paris were the outskirts of it and a aircraft factory as target.

Fyi the allies bombed everything that could help German production. Difference is that in occupied territory the tried to be a bit more accurate instead of flatten a whole part of a city as the did in Germany. But as is known now, it is very very hard to hit pin point targets that small with the gear they had. I am sure the tried there best to bomb the crap out of their targets and not hitting civilians if it was possible.Nobody wanted to kill innocent and nobody wanted to go back and hit the target again.

 

[bdefen]

Haroian = Haroiad

Missions de guerre de "Charlène":


1- 17 juillet 1943: Amsterdam


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), C.M. Zettick (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


2- 26 juillet 1943: Hanovre


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), C.M. Zettick (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


3- 2 septembre 1943: Bruxelles


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


4- 3 septembre 1943: Melun


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


5- 6 septembre 1943: Stuttgart


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


(abandon: endommagé à un moteur)


6- 7 septembre 1943: Watten


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


Abandon à 8h15 suite à une panne moteurs 1 et 4 (pression huile faible)


7- 9 septembre 1943: Paris


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), B. J. Quenneville (Bombardier), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)


8- 27 septembre 1943: Emden


Equipage: H.W. Moore (pilote), D.B. Herbert (copilote), R.L. Garretson (navigateur), J.F. Houston (Bombardier), W.M. Fleener (Radio), M.G. Meyers (mitrailleur dorsal), H.M. Gaines ( Mitrailleur ventral), J.J. Kirby (Latéral droit), L.B. Watson (Latéral Gauche), C. Peak (mitrailleur de queue)


9- 2 octobre 1943: Emden


Equipage: C.C. Bliss (pilote), V.D. Duncaan (copilote), J.N. Haroiad (Navigateur), H.G. Rotell (radio), A.N. Brown (mitrailleur Dorsal), R.E. Bradley (Mitrailleur Ventral), E.W. Wilbert (latéral droit), L.H. Rudell (latéral gauche), H Mays (mitrailleur de queue)

i think he got hurt mission 7, 9 septembre 1943: Paris

He wasn't in a hospital very long, if he's hurt on Sept 9 over Paris, and then bombing Emden Oct 2. Do the "Abandon" lines indicate aborting mission?

 

[Snautzer01]

He wasn't in a hospital very long, if he's hurt on Sept 9 over Paris, and then bombing Emden Oct 2. Do the "Abandon" lines indicate aborting mission?

Yes. could be an engine trouble or something else mechanical that would danger the crew and plane.

 

[bdefen]

Easy to see how anyone would be frightened in this line of work. Maybe he was hospitalized for "nerves".
Thank you all again, and Happy New Year.
Byron

 

[Snautzer01]

Easy to see how anyone would be frightened in this line of work. Maybe he was hospitalized for "nerves".
Thank you all again, and Happy New Year.
Byron

If that was the case he would not be flying that soon again. Further more there would be no future in the armed forces for him which he had. And keep in mind that there was plenty of navigators around but skilled electrical engineers i think not. So it would not be very strange that he had a tap on the shoulder and had a proposition he could not refuse.

 

[bdefen]

If that was the case he would not be flying that soon again. Further more there would be no future in the armed forces for him which he had. And keep in mind that there was plenty of navigators around but skilled electrical engineers i think not. So it would not be very strange that he had a tap on the shoulder and had a proposition he could not refuse.

Thank you for your positive outlook on my uncles fortune in war.
I've attached our local newspaper article about his injury and a portrait.

 

[rochie]

Well done Snautzer01

 

[beitou]

Long time lurker. This has amazed me. Someone posts requesting info about B17 cheek guns and within a few posts he is finding out about his family's wartime history. nice one.