Why Cessnas not Biplanes

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Clearly, no sailplane pilots have checked in to this thread yet, and all shots have been on the paper, but nobody's hit the X ring yet.
The holy grail of airframe performance is L/D, the ratio of lift to drag, most easily achieved with a monoplane, and in the most extreme form by a canard or a sesquiplane on the order of a Rutan Long Eze or a Quickie. Given that a sleek efficient monoplane like an early Bonanza is relatively easy and economical to design and produce, and is the more efficient layout it's not surprising that paradigm has become dominant. Try matching a Luscombe's or an Ercoupe's performance on 65 HP with a biplane, or a Cessna 170's on 145 HP.
The increased expense and reduced performance/HP of "modern" GA aircraft vis a vis their ancestors comes from hanging more gewgaws, "luxury", and STOL airframe mods on them, and the additional HP to compensate. Compare the E185 powered Bonanza mentioned upthread with its most recent descendant in the Vee tail line. More electronics, more weight, more seats, more luxurious appointments, more HP, and of course, MUCH MORE $$$$$$$! (But less performance/HP) The sports coupe has become a limousine.
Cheers,
Wes
Even L/D maybe a bit over rated. Look at the American Traveler AA1A, I remember Grumman advertising a 144 MPH (Statute) top speed in TR-2 guise. And that puppy had an rather interesting glide ratio. It's all about lightness, power to weight and some attention to drag.
(Although, remember the press surrounding Lopresti's Mooney 201?)
 
Although, remember the press surrounding Lopresti's Mooney 201?
I took my CFII checkride in one of those. Lopresti enhanced an already efficient airframe by significantly reducing cooling and parasite drag and boosting the lift side by using gap seals to reduce lift losses. Result: a much improved L/D and a hotrod airplane that badly needed a speed brake to get it down without shock cooling the cylinders. The FAA inspector got real nervous every time I had to pull it all the way back to idle to get it down to flap and gear speeds. Going down the ILS with gear and flaps down required so little power that the CHTs dropped alarmingly.
Even L/D maybe a bit over rated. Look at the American Traveler AA1A, I remember Grumman advertising a 144 MPH (Statute) top speed in TR-2 guise. And that puppy had an rather interesting glide ratio.
The AA1 was a GeeBee racer miniaturized. Draggy, with a small, heavily loaded wing, it flew on the "high HP brick" principle, and suffered in the payload and handling departments. Scary sumbitch in a spin, to boot. Due to its wing loading, it's optimum glide happened at a rather high speed with commensurate sink rate. At a more sedate glide speed it sank like the brick it was.
Cheers,
Wes
 
I took my CFII checkride in one of those. Lopresti enhanced an already efficient airframe by significantly reducing cooling and parasite drag and boosting the lift side by using gap seals to reduce lift losses. Result: a much improved L/D and a hotrod airplane that badly needed a speed brake to get it down without shock cooling the cylinders. The FAA inspector got real nervous every time I had to pull it all the way back to idle to get it down to flap and gear speeds. Going down the ILS with gear and flaps down required so little power that the CHTs dropped alarmingly.

The AA1 was a GeeBee racer miniaturized. Draggy, with a small, heavily loaded wing, it flew on the "high HP brick" principle, and suffered in the payload and handling departments. Scary sumbitch in a spin, to boot. Due to its wing loading, it's optimum glide happened at a rather high speed with commensurate sink rate. At a more sedate glide speed it sank like the brick it was.
Cheers,
Wes

Made my first landings in a TR-2, a Cheetah, (FBO where I worked at 13.) and a Luscombe (CFI at FBO had his own airplane.) before I was able to settle in on one airplane always being available. (A Warrior at the 2nd FBO where I worked after FBO #1 went out of business) Maybe I'm not the person you want picking your airplane. :)

Funny thing is, I always grouped Lopresti and Rutan together as engineers who designed for efficiency but watched out for flying characteristics.

Jim Bede? I grouped him with Messerschmidt, we're gonna' go fast and you're gonna' learn to deal with the quirks because your gonna'get speed over handling and you'll like it.

Fred Weick? You're gonna be bored but get there.
 
Maybe I'm not the person you want picking your airplane. :)
As an instructor, I agree. As a pilot, bring it on!
Did my tail wheel conversion in a Luscombe; regrettably after too many hours of nose dragger time. Sweet flying little bird, but designed for midgets and almost impossible fit for my 6'5" 220 lb frame. Since then it's been J3, PA18, L3, C170, C195, and L19, but never enough with any one bird to get really good at it. I've done a little instructing in various Grummans; the Tiger was a lot of fun. One guy showed up as a passenger in an AA1 he'd just bought and wanted me to teach him to fly in it. Like a fool, I took him on, and after 12 frustrating hours of twitching around the sky, finally convinced him to park it and rent the school's C150s until he calmed down and gained a little confidence. Last I heard, he was doing airshows in a Pitts.
Can't abide Hersey bar Cherokees. Long wing Warriors aren't so bad, but I'm a Cessna & Beech man at heart.
Cheers,
Wes
 
I don't find the Tiger moth to be any 'harder' to fly than a Piper Cub, but it is different. With a lower wing loading, it is more easily disturbed from level flight, and you are correct, it does need constant attention, but I think that is more to do with design philosophy than the bi-plane; e.g. the trim only has detents where it locks, so if you need a trim position between two, you're out of luck.

In late ww2 in Canada there was an enquiry into why it took pilots trained on the Tiger Moth twice the hours to convert to a Harvard that the pilots trained on a Stearman took.
The result was summarised as something like the Tiger Moth handles like a Tiger Moth and the Stearman handles like an aeroplane.
 
In order to meet CSAF McPeak's requirement that pilots be trained in acrobatic maneuvers from the outset, the USAF academy replaced the trusty old Cessna T-41 with the T-3A Slingsby Firefly. It used a larger engine than the British version of the airplane in order to handle the requirements for acro training at the higher altitudes associated with the Colorado Springs area. After numerous in-flight emergencies due to the engine quitting and two fatal mishaps as well as some instructors refusing to fly the Fireflies, the Air Force stopped using the Firefly and eventually scrapped them.

Someone pointed out the Air Force could have used PT-17 Stearman biplanes to replace the T-41 and very probably have had more a lot more success.
 
In order to meet CSAF McPeak's requirement that pilots be trained in acrobatic maneuvers from the outset, the USAF academy replaced the trusty old Cessna T-41 with the T-3A Slingsby Firefly.
USN has been training pilots ab initio in acro mode since the 30s. N3N, SNJ, T28, T34, T34C, and on. As a civilian CFI at a flight school contracted to a local military college, I did ab initio training for USAF ROTC pilot candidates in C150s. I must admit I think the Navy approach produces better pilots, at least where tactical jets are concerned. A significant number of our cadets washed out of UPT when they got to the T38 phase.
Cheers,
Wes
 
The USAF tried putting pilot candidates directly into T-37's for a while but I think they concluded it was an expensive way to find out that a candidate was going to be too difficult to train. So they switched to the T-41 as a cheaper way to find that out. Obviously, back in the PT-17 days they taught at least some acro in Primary. But when they tried to mix the "Can this guy learn to fly in a reasonable time?" with acro that was disastrous. Of course, Gen McPeak had flown with the Thunderbirds and thought that acro was really the thing to do.

I recall meeting officers that had washed out of pilot training saying things like, "I could fly that thing just great but I could not land it!" And I recall meeting one former pilot trainee that said he had washed out of T-38 training because he could not fly formation. I was a bit surprised that they would wash anyone out that late.
 
But when they tried to mix the "Can this guy learn to fly in a reasonable time?" with acro that was disastrous.
It was disastrous because they didn't do it right. If you take a bunch of ab initio students and put them in a plane that requires too much "brain speed" due to complexity, high speed, and/or complicated procedures, and start them off in "two dimensional" flight, then you're going to encounter disasters when you "add" acro to the mix. USAF should have stuck with the T34, despite its glamour deficit.
USN has always taught "three dimensional" flight from the get-go. Straight and level is learned normal and inverted at the same time. Loops and rolls are experienced from lesson one. Spins are accomplished successfully before solo. And how is this done without an astronomical fatality rate? By using a rugged, simple, honest-flying trainer that doesn't demand overwhelming brain speed, but that handles like, and has its cockpit configured like, its big brothers. The inclusion of three dimensional flight from the start is pretty effective at weeding out the "losers" before too much is invested in them.
Prop aircraft like the T28 and T34 are configured to behave as much like a jet as possible through offset thrust lines and aileron-rudder interconnects to allow jet-like "feet on the floor" turns and thrust changes.
T41 method of inspecting a spot directly below: fly a steep 720 and look down. T34 method: roll inverted and look up. A student who is comfortable with that approach before solo has a head start at becoming a combat pilot.
Cheers,
Wes
 
The USAF tried putting pilot candidates directly into T-37's for a while but I think they concluded it was an expensive way to find out that a candidate was going to be too difficult to train.
The tweet was a twin with some quirky behaviors and complex procedures; just too brain speed demanding, and not a particularly good acrobatic performer from a training standpoint. USAF would have been better off with T28s or T34s and full on acro from the start. Admittedly, both would have had to be up-engined to perform at AF Academy density altitudes, but that would be feasible given the T28C and the many civilian T34s flying with IO520s of 285 and 300 HP.
Cheers,
Wes
 
As an instructor, I agree. As a pilot, bring it on!
Did my tail wheel conversion in a Luscombe; regrettably after too many hours of nose dragger time. Sweet flying little bird, but designed for midgets and almost impossible fit for my 6'5" 220 lb frame. Since then it's been J3, PA18, L3, C170, C195, and L19, but never enough with any one bird to get really good at it. I've done a little instructing in various Grummans; the Tiger was a lot of fun. One guy showed up as a passenger in an AA1 he'd just bought and wanted me to teach him to fly in it. Like a fool, I took him on, and after 12 frustrating hours of twitching around the sky, finally convinced him to park it and rent the school's C150s until he calmed down and gained a little confidence. Last I heard, he was doing airshows in a Pitts.
Can't abide Hersey bar Cherokees. Long wing Warriors aren't so bad, but I'm a Cessna & Beech man at heart.
Cheers,
Wes

I must agree that my instructors worked much harder than me. ;)

Also, having flown two of the first Traumahawks off the line, at 16 years old I was unimpressed and would have preferred just about anything else. Never flew a Skipper, but......to your earlier post is was pretty sad to watch the malaise-era airplanes get slower and lose useful load. (I'd take a 1964-1965 150 over any other year 150.)
 
An interesting surprise there in terms of climb.
However, a couple of key contemporary metrics are missing that are not as important today.
1. Stalling and approach speeds
2. Take-off distance
3. Landing distance
All depends on how you define "better" climb. Dimes to dollars the biplane has a slightly higher max rate of climb that happens within a narrow speed range, while the monoplane has near peak climb rate over a wider speed range, and climbs at a significantly higher airspeed, covering more ground in the climb.
In the other three metrics the biplane wins hands down.
Cheers,
Wes
 
Also, having flown two of the first Traumahawks off the line, at 16 years old I was unimpressed and would have preferred just about anything else. Never flew a Skipper, but......to your earlier post is was pretty sad to watch the malaise-era airplanes get slower and lose useful load. (I'd take a 1964-1965 150 over any other year 150.)
The Skipper is a Traumahawk with manners and more solid construction, for which it pays a weight penalty. In practical terms, almost every training flight takes off overweight, unless both pilots are midgets. Don't let the published stats fool you. They represent a "stripped" airplane that no one is actually going to instruct in. One FBO I worked for became a Beech Aero Center, and were pressured to ditch their C150s for Skippers. The economics just weren't there, and the 150s stayed. The 150 was a better airplane for primary instruction, but the Sundowner was a perfect "step up" plane for people who wanted to move up to bigger and faster. I used to advocate finishing the Private in the Sundowner for those with professional aspirations. It was easy to fly safely and challenging to fly really well.
My favorite C150s were the '70, '71, '72, series planes. A little more civilized than the true lightweights, but not so loaded down as later 150/152s.
Cheers,
Wes
 
All depends on how you define "better" climb. Dimes to dollars the biplane has a slightly higher max rate of climb that happens within a narrow speed range, while the monoplane has near peak climb rate over a wider speed range, and climbs at a significantly higher airspeed, covering more ground in the climb.
In the other three metrics the biplane wins hands down.
Cheers,
Wes
I'd bet they were looking for a relatively short take-off coupled with a relatively steep angle of climb sufficient to get them over any trees at the end of 12-1500 foot grass strip.
The last three metrics were pretty important given the average airport in 1932. Having flown in a Fairchild 24 and a few cabin Wacos, their short take-off distances and general "field performance" came as an absolute revelation.
 

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