Why did the British airforce adopted highly similar Hurricane and Spitfire at the same time?

[Zippythehog]

Alas many still think that Rolls Royce Merlins were hand-crafted until Packard in the US "showed the Brits how to mass-produce them"...and this despite the fact that Rolls Royce in the UK produced over 100,000 engines, far more than any other combination of production lines. Yep...cottage industry for sure!

I don't intend to demean the significance of development or construction.
I had meant that the final results were more important than a rigid adherence to standard construction. I understand that this has both strengths and weaknesses (like any man-made system).

A craftsman system is learned by apprenticeship. An unskilled laborer can be plugged into a job with minimal training on an assembly line. The engineer sets standards for those laborers. The craftsman doesn't need the same level of oversight but takes longer to develop those skills. But I was referring to pre-war industry.

I am amazed at the historical documentation provided.

I also had no idea that those sleepy looking thatched roof dwellings concealed such a massive, empire supporting, defense system. I suppose that having a millennium of unbroken sovereignty afforded the capacity to secure such infrastructure.

 

[Zippythehog]

Triumph has been able to successfully blend cottage industry with modern construction techniques. This is well illustrated in this company video.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Germany, France, and Britain all industrialized by WWI at the latest, and were for example able to make millions of artillery shells and countless rounds of ammunition, vast quantities of rifles, helmets, uniforms, large warships, and eventually considerable numbers of trucks, rail cars, tanks, planes, u-boats zeppelins and so forth. Italy and Spain, Czechoslovakia and Poland, Hungary and the Balkans, Sweden, the Low Countries etc. also industrialized to various degrees. The US is kind of different in that they industrialized from the 19th Century but especially after WWI, but with a special emphasis on consumer goods and kind of neglected their military.

But England is where the Industrial Revolution started after all, so I wasn't trying to argue that they had 'cottage industries' in particular. More than 'cottage industries' were part of the industrialization process, for various particular markets -textiles, food, metals whatever. And yes of course arms. Apparently Germany was actually a bit slow to adopt steam power precisely because they were already using water power with their old ass water wheels.

You can do a lot of interesting things with those though. I was in Strasbourg back in 2019, and my friend who was showing us around is a local historian. He was telling us how the last thing they did with their water wheels that were situated downtown in the old city "La Petit France", they used them to make ice cream in the 60s. Apparently you can do that with water power.

Today apparently some of the old mill runs are being used to power small turbines.

 

[BlackSheep]

It would've been a good idea to test the ideas (doh).
If your 300 mph 'day' fighter has problems to catch a 270 mph bomber, while your 315-320 mph and 350-360 mph fighters don't have these problems, then why make the 300 mph fighter in the 1st place?



I'm not sure what amount of cool aid is required to say that that Hawker's fighters from Hurricane to Sea Fury "just had different names".

Take a hit of this copeium and we'll find out…lol

 

[SaparotRob]

Germany, France, and Britain all industrialized by WWI at the latest, and were for example able to make millions of artillery shells and countless rounds of ammunition, vast quantities of rifles, helmets, uniforms, large warships, and eventually considerable numbers of trucks, rail cars, tanks, planes, u-boats zeppelins and so forth. Italy and Spain, Czechoslovakia and Poland, Hungary and the Balkans, Sweden, the Low Countries etc. also industrialized to various degrees. The US is kind of different in that they industrialized from the 19th Century but especially after WWI, but with a special emphasis on consumer goods and kind of neglected their military.

But England is where the Industrial Revolution started after all, so I wasn't trying to argue that they had 'cottage industries' in particular. More than 'cottage industries' were part of the industrialization process, for various particular markets -textiles, food, metals whatever. And yes of course arms. Apparently Germany was actually a bit slow to adopt steam power precisely because they were already using water power with their old ass water wheels.

You can do a lot of interesting things with those though. I was in Strasbourg back in 2019, and my friend who was showing us around is a local historian. He was telling us how the last thing they did with their water wheels that were situated downtown in the old city "La Petit France", they used them to make ice cream in the 60s. Apparently you can do that with water power.

Today apparently some of the old mill runs are being used to power small turbines.

You know we're not letting go of this cottage industry thing.

 

[WARSPITER]

You know we're not letting go of this cottage industry thing.

Cheese was always a favourite for lunch too.

 

[pbehn]

Germany, France, and Britain all industrialized by WWI at the latest, and were for example able to make millions of artillery shells and countless rounds of ammunition, vast quantities of rifles, helmets, uniforms, large warships, and eventually considerable numbers of trucks, rail cars, tanks, planes, u-boats zeppelins and so forth. Italy and Spain, Czechoslovakia and Poland, Hungary and the Balkans, Sweden, the Low Countries etc. also industrialized to various degrees. The US is kind of different in that they industrialized from the 19th Century but especially after WWI, but with a special emphasis on consumer goods and kind of neglected their military.

But England is where the Industrial Revolution started after all, so I wasn't trying to argue that they had 'cottage industries' in particular. More than 'cottage industries' were part of the industrialization process, for various particular markets -textiles, food, metals whatever. And yes of course arms. Apparently Germany was actually a bit slow to adopt steam power precisely because they were already using water power with their old ass water wheels.

You can do a lot of interesting things with those though. I was in Strasbourg back in 2019, and my friend who was showing us around is a local historian. He was telling us how the last thing they did with their water wheels that were situated downtown in the old city "La Petit France", they used them to make ice cream in the 60s. Apparently you can do that with water power.

Today apparently some of the old mill runs are being used to power small turbines.

Water powered industry in England was huge especially Lancashire, this was later replaced by even bigger mills with steam power. Th oldest use I have seen was at the Abbeye de Fonteney in Burgundy France. From the 12th century they were producing iron in furnaces and forming it with water powered hammers.

Abbaye de Fontenay - Forge

Abbaye cistercienne de Fontenay fondée par St Bernard au XIIe siècle, Patrimoine Mondial. Site de Bourgogne très visité, avec Vézelay et Beaune.

www.abbayedefontenay.com

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

There were massive complexes like that with blast furnaces and in probably at least 300 towns around Central Europe and Italy, Including the one at Strasbourg, and at least that many at abbeys, especially the Cisterican abbeys.

I think something like 6,000 waterwheels were counted in the Domesday book by the Normans already in England alone in the late 11th C, and they definitely had some big bloomery forges already in various places on the Continent in the 12th Century but IIRC the belief currently is that full fledged blast furnaces and Barcelona hammers don't show up though until the 14th C

These are a couple of the old mill runs in Strasbourg and their big complex which was previously a giant forge in the 15th -17th Centuries (and later in the 1960s, a 100% water powerred ice house and ice-cream factory).

This is one of the old mill-runs in Basel, on what was once called the 'wasserfünf', where they had 5 mill based 'cottage industries' - one of which was a paper mill which still has the wheel up, and another was a cutler's (sword maker's) workshop where the fencing master Joachim Meyer was originally trained in his craft.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

In Toulouse they used to use floating mills, which were taken out by floods every few years.

Check out all the water mills out into the middle of the river in this 1581 (Braun and Hogenberg) map of Zurich (high res version here)

 

[pbehn]

During WW2 Teesside had a huge steel and petrochemical industry, plus a watermill dating back to Domesday. The Luftwaffe didnt make a single successful raid on the industry here but the watermill was completely destroyed.

 

[Zippythehog]

While we are on the subject of cottage industry, and since it appears that the thread has been irrevocably hijacked, would someone with more historical acumen than I please review this documentary and comment on its historical accuracy?

 

[Shortround6]

My own definition of cottage industry is a industry that can be done in cottages/dwellings by individuals or small teams.
Like weaving or pottery or shoemaking or even cabinet making.
Granted some of these can be scaled up and be done in rather large building but once you are using water wheels and buildings of several stories and several hundred feet in lengths it is not a cottage industry (at least in that location).
It is not so much sophistication (water power vs steam) as it is scale.
Hand looms can produce high quality cloth, they just cannot produce much of it per manhour (or manday), but they can fit in a smallish room and you can have hundreds of weavers in one village.

Once you start using something besides human power you start evolving going beyond "cottage industry"
Textiles involve a lot more than just weaving there may very well have been "complexes" that used a large number of small buildings. But separating carding, washing, spinning and dying into separate areas/ building vs one craftsman doing every job before even getting to the weaving stage we are getting beyond the "cottage industry stage".
If the washing for example is done in large kettles heated by wood brought in by wood cutters the whole process can break down at any one of several stages leaving the weavers with nothing to do even if their loom is their great rooms in their cottages.

There can be quite a bit of cross over.
My Grandfather for a period in WW II worked in a 4 man machine shop making gyroscope parts under subcontract to Norden. The of the machines were run by overhead pulleys form a single electric motor. It was in it's own building and not somebodies barn/woodshed but it wasn't much bigger than a 2-3 car garage.
Also note I said gyroscope parts, not complete gyroscopes.
I have no idea of how many other small contractors were supplying Norden and/or Sperry.

 

[pbehn]

While we are on the subject of cottage industry, and since it appears that the thread has been irrevocably hijacked, would someone with more historical acumen than I please review this documentary and comment on its historical accuracy?

Quite plausible. The connection with Chris Hinton and ICI nuclear research is true. My local community centre which used to be a large and isolated house, was taken over by ICI which had its two big refinery complexes near here. As per the link they had it until 1950 and when it was handed over one room was completely lined with lead (I read that years ago in a local paper),
https://www.onsitebuildingtrust.org...,,who’s memorial is in the centre of Stockton..

There was always something dodgy about Windscale, it had the worst nuclear accidnt in British History in 1957

Windscale fire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zippythehog]

My own definition of cottage industry is a industry that can be done in cottages/dwellings by individuals or small teams.
Like weaving or pottery or shoemaking or even cabinet making.
Granted some of these can be scaled up and be done in rather large building but once you are using water wheels and buildings of several stories and several hundred feet in lengths it is not a cottage industry (at least in that location).
It is not so much sophistication (water power vs steam) as it is scale.
Hand looms can produce high quality cloth, they just cannot produce much of it per manhour (or manday), but they can fit in a smallish room and you can have hundreds of weavers in one village.

Once you start using something besides human power you start evolving going beyond "cottage industry"
Textiles involve a lot more than just weaving there may very well have been "complexes" that used a large number of small buildings. But separating carding, washing, spinning and dying into separate areas/ building vs one craftsman doing every job before even getting to the weaving stage we are getting beyond the "cottage industry stage".
If the washing for example is done in large kettles heated by wood brought in by wood cutters the whole process can break down at any one of several stages leaving the weavers with nothing to do even if their loom is their great rooms in their cottages.

There can be quite a bit of cross over.
My Grandfather for a period in WW II worked in a 4 man machine shop making gyroscope parts under subcontract to Norden. The of the machines were run by overhead pulleys form a single electric motor. It was in it's own building and not somebodies barn/woodshed but it wasn't much bigger than a 2-3 car garage.
Also note I said gyroscope parts, not complete gyroscopes.
I have no idea of how many other small contractors were supplying Norden and/or Sperry.

I suppose your grandfather's experience was what I had in mind when I meant cottage industry.
I recall Pierre Clostermann, conversation with a Luftwaffe officer immediately after the war's end. The Luftwaffe officer was very impressed with the quality of the construction of Clostermann's Hawker Tempest.
I had read in Cycle magazine an article about the Norton motorcycle factory in Wolverhampton. In the early 70s, a machinist was hand-lapping the valves and another was bending the pre-chromed handlebars until they looked right to him.

 

[Zippythehog]

Quite plausible. The connection with Chris Hinton and ICI nuclear research is true. My local community centre which used to be a large and isolated house, was taken over by ICI which had its two big refinery complexes near here. As per the link they had it until 1950 and when it was handed over one room was completely lined with lead (I read that years ago in a local paper),
https://www.onsitebuildingtrust.org/portfolio/the-elmwood-centre/#:~:text=History of The Elmwood Centre Built in 1873,,who's memorial is in the centre of Stockton..

There was always something dodgy about Windscale, it had the worst nuclear accidnt in British History in 1957

Windscale fire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I recall reading about the accident. The firefighters who responded were heroes (I suppose it comes with the job).

 

[pbehn]

I recall reading about the accident. The firefighters who responded were heroes (I suppose it comes with the job).

How heroic they were depends on how much they were told about the risks. As a fire, to a fireman it wasnt a big deal because Windscale isnt near anywhere, however there is that "radiation thing" going on. I dont think many firefighters were involved, the fire was in the reactor and that sent a lot of contamination into the atmosphere and by water into surrounding buildings.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

How heroic they were depends on how much they were told about the risks. As a fire, to a fireman it wasnt a big deal because Windscale isnt near anywhere, however there is that "radiation thing" going on. I dont think many firefighters were involved, the fire was in the reactor and that sent a lot of contamination into the atmosphere and by water into surrounding buildings.

We weren't generally heroes, we just put the wet stuff on the red stuff. Fire-fighter heroes? Look at the 343 firefighters who ran into WTC knowing they probably were coming out feet-first. Them are heroes.

 

[pbehn]

Once you start using something besides human power you start evolving going beyond "cottage industry"
Textiles involve a lot more than just weaving there may very well have been "complexes" that used a large number of small buildings. But separating carding, washing, spinning and dying into separate areas/ building vs one craftsman doing every job before even getting to the weaving stage we are getting beyond the "cottage industry stage".
If the washing for example is done in large kettles heated by wood brought in by wood cutters the whole process can break down at any one of several stages leaving the weavers with nothing to do even if their loom is their great rooms in their cottages.

There may be a lot of halls but they were concentrated around the power source, either water or steam. I've seen a documentary on a museum "link to a similar one below" The power was taken and distributed by shafts cogs and pulleys and belts. It is a helluva thing to see running, phots dont show how complex and downright dangerous they were. QUEEN STREET MILL TEXTILE MUSEUM (Burnley) - All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go

 

[SaparotRob]

That set up must take a lot of children to run.

 

[pbehn]

That set up must take a lot of children to run.

Children as young as 7 worked in these places, but employment involved some hours of compulsory education (6 in the piece I read), the children grew up to be writing the ledgers and keeping records, more useful than their completely illiterate parents, industry and employers were realising education was important for all.