Why did the British airforce adopted highly similar Hurricane and Spitfire at the same time?

[SaparotRob]

By the way Merry Christmas and happy Hanukkah and Winter Solstice etc. Very much enjoy chatting with you folks and hope you are all doing well today.

....and Festivus for the rest of us.

 

[wuzak]

By the way Merry Christmas and happy Hanukkah and Winter Solstice etc. Very much enjoy chatting with you folks and hope you are all doing well today.

Happy Saturnalia.

 

[GrauGeist]

Lest we forget the Yuletide.

 

[WARSPITER]

One of the reasons we know much more about craft guilds in the Anglophone world today than we did say, 30 years ago, is that the British government has been trying to figure out how to improve what in the US we call 'vocational training', i.e. the raising of skilled labor. When they look at their economic rivals in Germany and a few other continental regimes across the channel (Austria, Switzerland, Czechia, Slovakia... and a little bit in France, Sweden, Denmark, the Low Countries and Italy), where they still utilize some elements of the old medieval craft system - in particular apprenticeships and in some industries still some full-fledged journeymen (who spend a year or two on the road traveling to learn their craft).

So back in the 90s the London School of Economics started funding some in depth studies which have changed the perception of 'guilds' in academia to some extent (also started a huge argument, with factions appearing on both sides throughout Europe and North America). Their goal was to learn better methods for training skilled labor for industry. This issue of the availability of skilled labor is at least tangentally relevant to aircraft production. A shortage of skilled labor was a problem gradually overcome in the Soviet Union. I think there was an issue with this in Japan as well, in both cases it was due to the rapid transformation of feudal, agrarian societies into technological, industrial ones. China was still on the other side of that during Ww2 and had a big problem finding enough skilled labor and learning how to train them.

England I think benefited from a fairly high ratio of skilled labor, Germany definitely did. France, Italy and the United States had their share as well though with varying degrees of unique local conditions. The US for example had a lot of semi-skilled people who may have had some experience with factory work, and also had become used to tinkering with cars, trucks and farm tractors due to their increased production and use of such machines in the economy. But certainly there was little remnant of any guild culture (though there were some). Somewhat similar for Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.

So as war is increasingly imminent, each nation has a reservoir of skilled vs unskilled labor, and there is also some variation on what kinds of skill sets are available - do you have a lot of people with design chops (like cutlers or masons from 15th Century Strasbourg who studied Euclid and Vitruvius) or are your skilled workers simply trained to operate a lathe or to work on a factory floor and follow instructions? All of this ties into the history of industrialization in each region.

Definite problem in Australia as well. In the 70's each trade year where I live had up to 25 apprentices.
This all changed in the eighties as apprenticeships started to drop badly.

By 2005 when I was working at a farm equipment manufacturer there was one apprentice boiler maker. He and one other were
the only two in the whole area and the other guy was in a town about 140km (90 miles ish) away.

This is why it is now difficult to get an electrician or plumber.

These changes also came about due to smaller towns in the area shrinking and losing support infrastructure (schools, police stations)
as they lost smaller businesses. These smaller businesses are akin to cottage industries and allowed people to create. Many are gone
and the jobs with them.

I worry a bit at the shift to "service" employment - computer whatever through to consultancies etc.

Manual skills have dropped off over time and higher tech skills aren't being pushed either (e.g. robotics building / maintenance).
We seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle and depend on others for the stuff at either end.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Functional illiteracy.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Definite problem in Australia as well. In the 70's each trade year where I live had up to 25 apprentices.
This all changed in the eighties as apprenticeships started to drop badly.

By 2005 when I was working at a farm equipment manufacturer there was one apprentice boiler maker. He and one other were
the only two in the whole area and the other guy was in a town about 140km (90 miles ish) away.

This is why it is now difficult to get an electrician or plumber.

These changes also came about due to smaller towns in the area shrinking and losing support infrastructure (schools, police stations)
as they lost smaller businesses. These smaller businesses are akin to cottage industries and allowed people to create. Many are gone
and the jobs with them.

I worry a bit at the shift to "service" employment - computer whatever through to consultancies etc.

Manual skills have dropped off over time and higher tech skills aren't being pushed either (e.g. robotics building / maintenance).
We seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle and depend on others for the stuff at either end.

Yes this is a big problem in the US for sure, though the authorities seem less concerned about it. Our vocational training ranges widely in quality but a lot of it is just a big scam trying to scoop up Pell grants and student loan money.

One difference attributable to the legacy of the crafts is that in Germany (and to varying degrees many other Continental European nations), while you do have to do this typical European thing and take a test at age 15 or so which decides your fate (do you go to university and higher education or do you take a turn into a craft or trade) if you do go the route of an electrician or plumber, you will be quite well trained in the job, you'll end up making good money, and will likely have a fairly respected position in society. A German carpenter is a serious, highly-skilled individual who can really make beautiful things. The same guy who fixes your house might be making lovely little clocks for the Christmas markets. And will likely be a respected member of the community. And the same goes for the guy who fixes the wind turbines or who works a lathe in the auto plant. They are good at their job and proud of their work.

In the US by contrast, they want you to have a college degree to work at Starbucks, but the value of the degree in terms of education is somewhat questionable (varying enormously depending on the school and the type of degree). Blue collar work seems to be looked down on in much if not most of the US (there are some regional exceptions to this). Basically the route to success and social mobility is portrayed as going through 4 year university, though the reality is that a successful contractor or plumber can still make very good money... and plenty of university graduates are broke. God forbid trying to make a living as an adjunct professor somewhere...

And meanwhile there is this big shortage of skilled blue collar labor. It's hard to find a good plumber or electrician here too (I can testify to this personally - we just had a hard freeze and nobody can come look at my broken floor furnace for at least a couple of weeks!). Huge number of people who would love to do the work, but instead are descending into poverty. Huge and increasing demand for the workers with even some major industrial leaders clamoring about it in the media. Large, extensive higher education system. But something seems broken in between, I'd say starting at the high school level.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

One of the medieval traditions they still have (in a few niches) is the gesellenshacft, the journeymen, who go on the 'walz sein' or 'wanderjahre'. In France they call them 'Compagnons du Devoir'

In certain industries in certain towns, after you finish your apprenticeship (anywhere from 1-3 years) you pass a little exam, and then graduate to becomming a journeyman. These days they get a police clearance, and they have to wear this goofy outfit and hat like you see here. Depending on the craft, they usually have specific rules like:

You must stay 50 km away from your home town.
You may not use a car or a smart phone while on your waltz. (they usually hitch-hike)
You must present your wanderbüch to a master of your craft when you arrive in a new town.
You wear a special earring, and must comport yourself honorably. If you do something disgraceful on the road (commit a serious crime), they will tear the earring out leaving a scar on your ear.
When you work at your craft, the master will sign your wanderbüch and write something about how you did. You aren't supposed to look at this until you have left that town.
Usually you only work for room and board while on your wanderyahr though you may take small tips.
There are journeyman's clubhouses where you can find room and board and a little pocket money.
You start your trip with a small amount of money (these days 5 Euro) and when you finish you are supposed to have exactly that amount of money on you.

This has gone on pretty much unchanged since the 14th Century or so. The Nazis banned it for a while in the 30s but it came back after WW2. They have their secret handshakes and so on, they have secret signs they will mark different places with. They have even made some new traditions, like many of them will climb over the highway sign of their home town when they are done and arriving home. They also have wild parties at the journeyman's lodges at different stages of the trip. I saw one in Czech Republic, a joiner's guild was having this big party where they were dancing around with a straw woman.

The goal of this was in part to spread knowledge around from town to town (new technologies like the vice, the draw plate, the paper mill and the printing press were all spread around by medieval journeymen), to improve town vs. rural relations (young journeymen would often do things like write letters for the peasants or do farm work in exchange for room and board) and to learn how things were done in other places.. and to help skilled labor migrate to where it was needed. And of course, to open the minds of young provincial youths. Quite often journeymen will end up settling in some new town far from home.

 

[WARSPITER]

Large, extensive higher education system. But something seems broken in between, I'd say starting at the high school level.

Bingo! We have a winner.

At High School here my kids and their friends were told repeatedly they "were too good to be doing those kind of jobs".
They could be whoever they wanted to be etc as long as they furthered their education rather than being told that all jobs
are important.

There was also the lure of greater prosperity whereby young graduates now expect to earn a high wage straight away due
to being qualified.

I see a lot of older people in jobs now which were once the domain of younger people - mostly because the younger ones
won't take them. Cleaning jobs are a prime example. Older workers are getting those jobs even though they would like to
slow things down but the offers keep coming and the pay is actually better than say a retail assistant job. All a matter of
perception perhaps.

Your point about being respected in the community is also spot on. No one likes to be looked down on but that is an unfortunate
part of life these days.

As far as building aircraft goes the base skills were there in the thirties whether it was working with metal or wood. When that could
be coupled with accurate bulk production you're on a winner. The Sherman tank is a great example. Where other countries spare
parts had to be 'made to fit' due to production techniques the Sherman parts were mostly interchangeable between models and they
were made so they fitted with no mucking around. No other tank had so many engine choices that all worked so well either.

Not sure but I'd guess aircraft were probably the same.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I think that was a big issue with aircraft maintenance - some were truly interchangable, some especially at the beginning of the war were essentially bespoke and unique (this was a major problem with Soviet aircraft) many were somewhere in between.

 

[yosimitesam]

A good book on the subject of why two? is Michael Korda's With Wings Like Eagles. He attributes much of the specifications to Air Marshal Dowding himself. Dowding insisted on 8 machine guns in both planes, thinking it would take that many to ensure a kill against a bomber, and bullet proof glass. He quotes Dowding as saying if a Chicago gangster can have bullet proof glass in his car, why can't I have it in my fighters.

That book is an excellent 5-star read. Korda, ex Editor-in-Chief for Simon & Schuster, is a very good writer. (His autobiography "Another Life" is also an excellent read and gives a fascinating inside look at the publishing industry up until the 2000's, as well as the personalities of a lot of major writers in that era.) By the late 1930's, aircraft had become so fast (especially fighter aircraft) that it was "calculated" that a fighter pilot would have only one or two seconds of firing time in an attack. As it turned out, this wasn't always true but it was believed, at that time, that you must throw a lot of projectiles in the shortest possible time at a target in order to hit something, due to the laws of probability. Hence, 8 guns that fire as fast as possible, even if each projectile's "damage quotient" wasn't very great.

 

[wingnuts]

Definite problem in Australia as well. In the 70's each trade year where I live had up to 25 apprentices.
This all changed in the eighties as apprenticeships started to drop badly.

By 2005 when I was working at a farm equipment manufacturer there was one apprentice boiler maker. He and one other were
the only two in the whole area and the other guy was in a town about 140km (90 miles ish) away.

This is why it is now difficult to get an electrician or plumber.

These changes also came about due to smaller towns in the area shrinking and losing support infrastructure (schools, police stations)
as they lost smaller businesses. These smaller businesses are akin to cottage industries and allowed people to create. Many are gone
and the jobs with them.

I worry a bit at the shift to "service" employment - computer whatever through to consultancies etc.

Manual skills have dropped off over time and higher tech skills aren't being pushed either (e.g. robotics building / maintenance).
We seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle and depend on others for the stuff at either end.

When I worked at CAC and HdeH here in Australia we had a very good apprenticeship system, even training apprentices for other companies like the Holden (GMH) car company, we trained more apprentices than CAC/HdeH needed, many of the move straight on to the airlines after training. However, towards the end, the policy shifted to training semi-skilled people to do one job, like drilling, riveting, or sealing, (and paying them less of course).

It became a nightmare for inspectors like me, you could no longer rely on the aircraft manufacturing culture where if they make a mistake they own up so problems and procedures can be fixed, instead they would try to cover up defects.

Luckily I moved to the HdeH/Tenix hangar at the airport doing modifications to RAAF aircraft, and where we only used very good fully skilled tradesmen, a lot brought in from overseas.

 

[pinehilljoe]

That book is an excellent 5-star read. Korda, ex Editor-in-Chief for Simon & Schuster, is a very good writer. (His autobiography "Another Life" is also an excellent read and gives a fascinating inside look at the publishing industry up until the 2000's, as well as the personalities of a lot of major writers in that era.) By the late 1930's, aircraft had become so fast (especially fighter aircraft) that it was "calculated" that a fighter pilot would have only one or two seconds of firing time in an attack. As it turned out, this wasn't always true but it was believed, at that time, that you must throw a lot of projectiles in the shortest possible time at a target in order to hit something, due to the laws of probability. Hence, 8 guns that fire as fast as possible, even if each projectile's "damage quotient" wasn't very great.

to the Moderators, at the risk of crossing into the Book forum, the audio version of the book narrated by John Lee is as good as reading, John Lee creates almost a radio drama. A must for anyone interested in the Battle of Britain or the Air War in general.

I just finished Korda's Book, Alone: Britain, Churchill, and Dunkirk: Defeat Into Victory Another good one.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

When I worked at CAC and HdeH here in Australia we had a very good apprenticeship system, even training apprentices for other companies like the Holden (GMH) car company, we trained more apprentices than CAC/HdeH needed, many of the move straight on to the airlines after training. However, towards the end, the policy shifted to training semi-skilled people to do one job, like drilling, riveting, or sealing, (and paying them less of course).

It became a nightmare for inspectors like me, you could no longer rely on the aircraft manufacturing culture where if they make a mistake they own up so problems and procedures can be fixed, instead they would try to cover up defects.

Luckily I moved to the HdeH/Tenix hangar at the airport doing modifications to RAAF aircraft, and where we only used very good fully skilled tradesmen, a lot brought in from overseas.

Supposedly the old Aussie song "Waltzing Matilda" has something to do with the journeyman year, though I'm not so sure I buy that.

Very interesting correlation between the use of lesser skilled labor and more micromanagement with covering up rather than owning up to problems. I think something like that has happened to a couple of real big manufacturers in the US.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

If you think the Brits were inefficient in pursuing two distinct single-seat, single-engine monoplane fighter programs, check out the French.

France had six entirely distinct single-seat, single-engine, monoplane fighter programs between 1936 to 1940.

1. Bloch MB.150. Specified 1934. First flight 1937. Introduced 1939.
2. Morane-Saulnier M.S.406. Specified 1934 (same spec as the MB.150). First flight 1938. Introduced 1939.
3. Arsenal VG-33. Specified 1936. First flight 1939. Introduced 1940.
4. Dewoitine D.520. Specified 1936 (same spec as the VG-33). First flight 1938. Introduced 1940.
5. Caudron C.714. Specified 1936 (same spec as VG-33). First flight 1936. Introduced 1940.
6. Koolhoven F.K.58. Specified 1937. Ordered from Dutch firm. First flight 1938. Introduced 1940.

Imagine between 1939 and 1940 trying to introduce and operate six distinct single-engine, single-seat monoplane fighter types.

And all of those only to have the Curtiss H-75 as the best fighter at the start of the war.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Partly because the H-75 had been out to it's units longer - the pilots knew how to fly them and some of the minor flaws had been ironed out or worked-around.

Dewoitine D.520 turned out to be a pretty good fighter still at least somewhat effective as late as 1943. The D.520, Arsenal VG-33 and that (Dutch Import) Koolhaven F.K.58 probably would have held their own if the war had started say 3 months later. All three are probably at least as good as Hurricane Mk 1., probably a bit better.

The big disappointment was the MB. 150-152 series, unstable and too draggy... and the Potez 63 series heavy fighter also seems to have been kind of a dud. It's unclear if either design could have been 'fixed'. They may have been selected for production before the concepts were really proven.

And the MS.406, which was the most ubiquitous fighter IIRC, was just a bit past it's freshness date as a design.

 

[Shortround6]

Dewoitine D.520 turned out to be a pretty good fighter still at least somewhat effective as late as 1943. The D.520, Arsenal VG-33 and that (Dutch Import) Koolhaven F.K.58 probably would have held their own if the war had started say 3 months later. All three are probably at least as good as Hurricane Mk 1., probably a bit better.

The Arsenal VG-33 was running almost 6 months late. The plan to use wood instead of aluminum blew up in their faces. The French had nowhere near enough domestic wood and had to import it and much of the imported wood turned out to be unsuitable. The Koolhaven F.K. 58 doesn't seem to have any real advantage over the Hurricane. Wooded wings, steel tube fuselage with metal panels on the front and fabric on the back. 1/2 the firepower of the Hurricane, a bit slower. (or a lot depending on source)

The big disappointment was the MB. 150-152 series, unstable and too draggy... and the Potez 63 series heavy fighter also seems to have been kind of a dud. It's unclear if either design could have been 'fixed'. They may have been selected for production before the concepts were really proven.

The Potez 63 is sort of a Bf 110 lite. 3 seat heavy fighter using a pair of 700-750hp engines. If the Germans had gone west with Jumo powered 110s it may have been more even.
The French in the 1930s seem to have been obsessed with cheap equipment they could buy in mass, regardless of how effective it actually was. See the thousands of 2 man tanks without radios. Looked good in a parade, not so good in combat.
There is no way to "fix" the Potez as it was intended to use either the Hispano 14AB radial or the Gnome-Rhone 14M engines of 750-700hp and since the design had been built to a price (max weight) trying to stuff in bigger, heavier engines would require both extensive redesign and a lot more money. This assumes you can get engines, the two Hispano radials were abject failures. Which means that every French design that used radials had to use G-R engines.
BTW, the specs on Wiki are for the fat nosed recon version, not the normal fighter.

 

[Admiral Beez]

And the MS.406, which was the most ubiquitous fighter IIRC, was just a bit past it's freshness date as a design.

I wonder why the MS.406 took so long to get into service. First flight in 1934, enters front line service early 1939. Given its poor performance in the BoF, it's an odd plane for a museum or restoration candidate, akin to a US museum investing in a SB2A restoration to flying condition.



EDIT, well damn, here's one.

https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/2/23307_1294638653.jpg

 

[GrauGeist]

Why not have an MS.406 in a warbird collection?

They were a fundamental part of the war's early days and having an example in a collection would be valuable.
Especially since there are none left - the sole surviving MS.406 is actually a licensed built Swiss MS.412 (Swiss designated D-3801).

 

[pbehn]

Why not have an MS.406 in a warbird collection?

They were a fundamental part of the war's early days and having an example in a collection would be valuable.
Especially since there are none left - the sole surviving MS.406 is actually a licensed built Swiss MS.412 (Swiss designated D-3801).

Agreed, people lovingly restore and keep all sorts of stuff like this running, in modern terms they are useless at everything, but great to see and hear.

 

[Shortround6]

Everybody should have a steam traction engine. Because it is steam