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Shadowing (let alone cruising) at high speed wouldn't be practical, but in those situations wouldn't staying at higher altitude be preferable anyway? (as long as visual and/or radar contact could be maintained)Once the convoy is spotted you can turn around and execute an attack run. In order to get a number of planes to attack a convoy the plane that does the initial spotting needs to shadow it to guide the other attacking planes (give position up dates). But the plane doing the shadowing cannot be zipping around at high speed burning up fuel at a high rate. The "strike force" may be able to use a shallow dive on the actual bomb run but even a 40 ship convoy doesn't cover a wide area compared to a city and going into the shallow dive before getting a visual (or radar contact) on the convoy may not work too well.
I was suggesting putting more emphasis on developing a potent long range bomber/recon/patrol aircraft in the first place. Probably with greater emphasis on recon/patrol ability (with strike aircraft carrying out most actual attacks).Using a bomber that is 50-75mph faster in 1942-43 doesn't mean the radar went away, or the even more AA guns, there are even more escort carriers.
The faster, newer bombers will have lower losses than trying to use Condors but they are not going to return the German success rate to that of late 1940.
What made it possible to successfully bomb the ships of convoy Faith from between 12000ft to 15000ft was the use of a computing bombsight, the Lotfe 7.
...Convoy Faith was about 3 troop ships/merchantmen and 3 escorts. Only one of the escorts was a destroyer HMCS Iroquois. The Allied escorts were bulked out by low end frigates and sloops that were slow, had poor fire control, reciprocating steam engines instead of turbines, little armament and what there was only manually trained and whose radar was good for surface search of u-boats only. They were all about screening of U-boats using cheap microwave radar and a sonar. Faith it seems was attacked by, it seems, only 4 Fw 200's. There were two other warships in the distance, one of which was attacked.
Iroquois, the only true destroyer, had a type 291 air search radar that was fine for early warning. It was developed of metric ASV radar and was connected to a PPI display. It also had a secondary role in assisting anti aircraft fire by providing slant range to an accuracy of about 200m, which is pretty miserable...
The RAF's accurate bombing of Tirpitz is unremarkable: it was a 800ft by 100ft target. The only thing I find fascinating is how they accumulate the tallboy bombs aero ballistic data.
German bombers never had the success of their allied counterparts for a myriad of reasons, although you can trace the root of the problem back to the initial offensives. The Third reich did not envisage having to have an effective long range multi engined bomber force, as they believed in a short war that could be won with existing weapons. Technical woes, material shortages, lack of training and manpower eventually finished them off.
From 10,000ft (not actually sure of drop height) even a big ship like the Tirpitz is still a tiny target, if it was so unremarkable why wasnt everyone doing it. No617 and No9 were highly trained specialised units with possibly more combat and training flight hours than any other bomber squadrons before or since and even they only hit with 2 out of 29 bombs dropped.
Hey Juha, would you mind giving me the rest of the He 177 bomb bay dimensions? Many thanks!
The 277 was a more advanced late-war design not really feasible as an alternative to the 177. The early proposal for developing the He 177 with 4 engines (namely DB 601 or Jumo 211) would be more practical but likely still suffer from some of the He 177's other teething problems related to advanced features. Still, it would at very least reduce the number of technical hurdles to overcome.Getting back to the He 177, it was a flawed design, partly due to the twin engined bomber mindset of the Luftwaffe heads at the time. The 4 engined he 277 was a much more promising design.
As Shortround06 already noted, the He 111 was relatively long ranged (though not as long as the Wellington), and pre-war the LW did have plans for long range strategic bombing capabilities with the development of the Ju 89 and Do 19 resulting from that. Walther Wever was the major proponent of this and the program died out after his death in 1936. (the subsequent Bomber A requirement that led to the He 177 did share some of the same goals, but even aside from the added dive bombing requirement it pushed a number of other advanced requirements beyond the scope of the older Ju 89, particularly the 500 km/h requirement)The Third reich did not envisage having to have an effective long range multi engined bomber force, as they believed in a short war that could be won with existing weapons. Technical woes, material shortages, lack of training and manpower eventually finished them off.
A developed Ju 89 should have been able to manage Moscow (though likely not the Urals). The Fw 200 should have managed it as well, but bombload was fairly limited (4 or 6 250 kg bombs for the C-2) and the Ju 89 should have had a good deal more potential for expanded internal bomb capacity than the Fw 200. (the initial 16x100 kg bombs isn't very impressive, though)GOing back to the Germans, it is around 600 miles from eastern Poland to Moscow. If we use the range X 1/3 + radius formula then the German 4 engine bomber would need a range of 2900-3000km to hit Moscow after the Germans took all of Poland. Please note that at this range a Halifax II might be carrying about 3000lbs worth of bombs. The Halifax II might not have been the most streamline plane going but it was using Merlin XX engines. A German 4 engine bomber that could hit Moscow in the Summer of 1941 (let alone the Urals) was a pipe dream.
Sorry but the drawing is on the cross-section of the fuselage, so no info on the lenght of the bomb bay, there might be that info in the text but I don't have time to look it. IMHO the easiest way to find out is to look on a good sideway picture of He 177, measure the lenght of the bomb bay and with the knowledge of the lenght of He 177 calculate the lenght of the bomb bay.
Tirpitz was an exceptionally difficult target to hit. She was protected on three sides by steep Fjord walls, had a full regt of flak protecting her, torpedo nets, smoke machines. Attacking aircraft had to either fly high, as was done in the November attacks and only had a short time in which to sight up the target, due to the canyon walls either side, or run the gauntlet up the Fjord itself.
On the day of the attack, the 617 sqn was lucky. weather was clear, but there were no fighters, cloud cover partially obscured the target, but it was still possible to see her. Blind bombing aids were used to assist in sighting up, but the final bomb releases were done visually. Smoke machines were activated, but the screen was only partial at the time of the bomb releases.
There was probably no better protected warship in the world at that time. And hitting a warship sized target at 16000 feet is never easy
Statistically it's the equal of dropping 36 marbles onto a 1cm wide model battleship from waist high. You are bound to get a hit.
Statistically it's the equal of dropping 36 marbles onto a 1cm wide model battleship from waist high. You are bound to get a hit.
Parsifal dont forget No9 squadron were also on the raid. No9 squadron (unlike 617 who used the SABS) used the standard Bomber Command MkXIV Automatic bomb sight.
That has to be the dumbest thing anyone has said on this forum all year. Try dropping the marbles whilst jogging past the 1cm wide model and see how many times you hit it.
A few things worked to assist 617 in this attack. The Tallboys they used were an incredibly heavy, but aerodynamic bomb. Whereas, even bombs of 2000 lbs weight would tend to tumble and get buffetted around by air turbuloence, the Tallboys were very stable and predictable in their descent path. Further, the flak was firing blind without benefit of radar, an unusual handicap, but it meant the flak was relatively innaccurate on this occasion. The air was still and visibility good.
Bombing any ship from 16000 feet, with iron bombs without any real electronic assistance is difficult at the best of times, I can see you've never watched the progress of bombing runs on the range when you make claims like that. They are difficult even with the technology of the 70s and 80s which I am familiar with, but with the technology of 1944, it was more a matter of luck than good planning.