Why fabric and wood materials were used on F4Us

[ppopsie]

If one make repairs on ailerons or other control surfaces he or she has to determin its cg position around the hinge axis before return the repaired thing back to service, to prevent possible occurence of the flutters, and hence, degradation of the Vne value.

I couldn't remember on what section or para this was written in the FAA AC43 because I gave the book away years ago but what I can remember is that the rule shall be more strictly adhered to on the high speed aircraft. This also has to be written in every maintenance/repair manuals of any types of aircraft including the ones I can download and read on this forum.

In real life however small breakage(s) or hole(s) just on fabric covered control surfaces may and could be simply patched up in field which I used to do.

From these it can be assumed that if the damage on a control surfaces, may be an aileron, was larger than just a hole on the skin, in fabric or metal, it has to be repaired in a shop after removing from the airplane wing. Is that so and if you got a shot up and damaged Corsair on a carrier you got to change the damaged control surface(s) with new or repaired one(s) to get the plane back into the service.

That is one more thing I'd like to know. I never read any book in any languages mentioning about what were done on the WW2 carriers.

BTW where are the Martin Mars stored in?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If one make repairs on ailerons or other control surfaces he or she has to determin its cg position around the hinge axis before return the repaired thing back to service, to prevent possible occurence of the flutters, and hence, degradation of the Vne value.

It depends upon the size of the repair and the manufacturer usually gives guidelines for that

I couldn't remember on what section or para this was written in the FAA AC43 because I gave the book away years ago but what I can remember is that the rule shall be more strictly adhered to on the high speed aircraft. This also has to be written in every maintenance/repair manuals of any types of aircraft including the ones I can download and read on this forum.

160 knots and above

In real life however small breakage(s) or hole(s) just on fabric covered control surfaces may and could be simply patched up in field which I used to do.

I've seen duct tape used!

From these it can be assumed that if the damage on a control surfaces, may be an aileron, was larger than just a hole on the skin, in fabric or metal, it has to be repaired in a shop after removing from the airplane wing. Is that so and if you got a shot up and damaged Corsair on a carrier you got to change the damaged control surface(s) with new or repaired one(s) to get the plane back into the service.

Ground crews might already had extra ailerons covered and painted ready for installation.

That is one more thing I'd like to know. I never read any book in any languages mentioning about what were done on the WW2 carriers.

In what respect?

BTW where are the Martin Mars stored in?

The last ones are in Canada..

 

[Snautzer01]

C



Ballooning will occur at high speed with deteriorating fabric although the faster the aircraft went, the more the fabric control surface was subject to ballooning.
I believe they started out as fabric control surfaces and were later changed to metal, but I believe the trim tabs remained wood.

Yes, they encountered this first with high speed dives. And with the more powerfull engines they would have seen this a lot more. Quite a few accidents happened before they figured out what was ripping the control surfaces.

What i didnt think off was the deteriorating fabric. Quite right you are. That would have become an issue of maintenance offcourse.

Regards

Snautzer

 

[ppopsie]

In what respect?

All of them, I would say. There were a host of books or magazines about the carriers existed but few describes about how the people aboard were organized, worked and, in particular, lived.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

All of them, I would say. There were a host of books or magazines about the carriers existed but few describes about how the people aboard were organized, worked and, in particular, lived.

If I understand what you're looking for is the way the organization is structured. If so, it hasn't changed much from WW2 from what I understand.

Aboard the ship you'll have your respective squadrons - as far as the maintenance folks they are broken up by shops - airframes, power plant, electrical, etc. As far as doing fabric work for example, I would of think that would of been an airframe function possibly done by an aviation rigger or metal smith. Squadron maintenance officers would be the one to determine what spare parts should be maintained as well as when a "Squadron" will do an extensive repair. If there is something outside the squadron's capability its sent to IMA or "Intermediate" Maintenance activity" or also known as AIMD. "Intermediate" maintenance (some rebuilding) would be done at that activity. If the aircraft is really damaged or close to an overhaul it goes to depot level, at that point major overhauls and rebuilds are done.

Now where does this fit in with fabric recovering? My guess would be that minor repairs and recovering jobs would be done at the squadron level. Larger jobs would be done at "IMA" and more than likely an IMA would exist aboard the carrier.

Each shop within a squadron or IMA could work in shifts - 12 on 12 off or 24 on 12 off. In some cases you may be attached to a "watch" detail where you will pull a watch during your non-working hours.

I was in the Naval Reserve for 6 years and was actually attached to a carrier augmentation unit attached to the Constellation, but I left the unit before i ever had a chance to on board ship. Hope this answered some of your questions. As stated, I don't think changed that much since WW2 but this was what I experienced and talking to some WW2 vets, it sounded like they went through a similar situation.

 

[ppopsie]

If I understand what...

Thanks, FLYBOY J. As I understand there were
Carrier>Air wing>Squadron>maintenance division>each shop
Am I correct?

I have been interested in how many people were assigned to each section/division or duty aboard of an Essex class carrier or similar, or any ship in WW2. To my best knowledge the Essex class carrier had a crew of around 2800+ in average.
And, how so many of the USN men were trained to became professionals in such a short period during the war.

I met an ex-USN test pilot a few years ago at our flying club. I talked with him for a while and I asked a question to him how the men can endure such a life aboard of a carrier which should have 5000 male(then) people on it. Then he gave me a short sweet one "it's duty." That got me very nicely.

There are too many things about naval or any aviation of any kind of any nation attract me but.....BTW I am now worrying about the FIRE in LA area.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks, FLYBOY J. As I understand there were
Carrier>Air wing>Squadron>maintenance division>each shop
Am I correct?

Exactly!

I have been interested in how many people were assigned to each section/division or duty aboard of an Essex class carrier or similar, or any ship in WW2. To my best knowledge the Essex class carrier had a crew of around 2800+ in average.

That you're probably going to have to get from a WW2 veteran or you might be able to do some research on that. One of our members, R Leonard's dad was a distinguished naval aviator, he might have some info on unit personnel numbers.

And, how so many of the USN men were trained to became professionals in such a short period during the war.

In one way or another I thin they were all professionals.

I met an ex-USN test pilot a few years ago at our flying club. I talked with him for a while and I asked a question to him how the men can endure such a life aboard of a carrier which should have 5000 male(then) people on it. Then he gave me a short sweet one "it's duty." That got me very nicely.

Yep - that's why I'm glad I never did the boat!

There are too many things about naval or any aviation of any kind of any nation attract me but.....BTW I am now worrying about the FIRE in LA area.

Are you there?

 

[ccheese]

BTW where are the Martin Mars stored ?

The Hawaii Mars and the Caroline Mars are the only two left,
and they are currently for sale !

Charles

 

[ccheese]

I met an ex-USN test pilot a few years ago at our flying club. I talked with him for a while and I asked a question to him how the men can endure such a life aboard of a carrier which should have 5000 male(then) people on it. Then he gave me a short sweet one "it's duty." That got me very nicely.

I served on two carriers and had no problem. Most pilots were part of the
air group and were not attached to the ship. They just deployed for six
months, then went back to their air station. Life on an aircraft carrier is
choice duty. Hardly rocks, got everything you need, good (not great)
food, a large medical department, commissary (Ships store, laundry,
"gedunk", barber shop, etc.). The big problem with serving on a carrier
is riding liberty boats. The carrier draws so much water they seldom
tie up at a pier. Usually have to anchor a mile or so off-shore. Picture
a small boat full of drunken sailors, and you'll see what I mean.

Charles

 

[ppopsie]

>In one way or another
To train hundreds thousands young men to that level in such a short period during the war must be tremendous, if one think about the education system of today.

I was in Chino in 1982 for a month and half taking ppl flying lessons. If the flyng boats were available today they could possibly be operating from one of the reservoirs in the area.

How was the food on carriers? I am interested in that because I love cooking too. Foods shall form a part of the morale in there.

Young men might cause problems sometime while on months' duty thinking of myself. I sometimes hear things like that happen in Yokosuka but carriers normally can get the pier there anyway. I don't like our coast guard to spend our tax to seach for drunken men ( women) who got overboard.

How was the pay while on sea? I heard some of JMSDF men make a big money by saving allowances while serving at a remote island for months.

 

[ppopsie]

I found this morning in a book that as of 26th Nov. 1942 there were 2013 crewmenber on the IJN carrier Shkokaku;

691 i/c of ship
136 aircrews
653 maintenance (all belong to the ship)
352 engine room
55 carpenters
24 medical and
88 cooking and accounting

no specific mentioning about emergency crews was attached to the data.

 

[Macchi]

Not intending to hijack, but the old Martin Mars....

Martin JRM-3 Mars Airtankers

 

[HoHun]

Hi Ppopsie,

>I understand the control surfaces in general had been fabric covered for the reason of weights on many aircraft types.

It's my impression that the reason was not really weight, but mass. That's a very subtle difference and it really only counts because the mass could be a concern as it made control flutter more likely while the pull of gravity could be - and often was - balanced around the hinge line.

Control flutter (a resonance phenomenon) could make control of the aircraft difficult or epen rip the control surfaces off the aircraft if it got too violent. The greater the control surface mass, the greater the forces involved, and thus the potential destructiveness of flutter.

To highlight the point with an anecdote: The RAF discovered that the ailerons of high-speed aircraft like the Spitfire would encounter flutter (or its incipient stage, "aileron buzz") more readily when the RAF roundels were painted on the wings so that they extended on the ailerons too. The very small mass of an additionally coat of paint made a perceptible difference - so they issued an order to restrict the size of the roundels to the main wing area. What inevitably happened was that some squadrons overpainted the "excessive" roundel area on the ailerons with camouflage paint, adding even more mass and inadvertently making matters worse!

(This is from memory, so it might be inaccurate in the details. I wish I'd remember the original source of the anecdote!)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[ppopsie]

Thanks HoHun-sama,

Thats right it is mass. That was my ignorance. I never knew even a slice of a RAF roundel did that but it is understandable. If a pilot flew in different individual aircraft of same type then he/she would percieve very subtle difference on the controls of the each aircraft. That is quite possible to occur, from my own experience.

What I only knew about the Spitfire ailerons was that Jeffrey Quill wrote in his great book "Spitfire," about the ailerons of some of the Spitfire Mk Vs became a lot heavier at high speed but was later made lighter .

Since after I started this thread, I have found the following test report from naca about the TBF Avenger. It is rather scientific but one can skip the part which is too academic. Even though one can know what was it like to do with very very(?) sensitive part of an airplane.

Best regards,

p-popsie AJ-P

NACA UK Mirror report description page

 

[DOUGRD]

EXACTLY!
AC 43.13-1B Chapter 2 section 4 for fabric repairs, Chapter 4 section 4 for metal repairs. I deal with fabric and sheet metal repairs on an almost daily basis.

What aircraft do you work on that are using Grade A cotton or Irish linen?

 

[ppopsie]

>Grade A cotton or Irish linen

In MY case I used them on German built gliders in early 70s. I don't have experiences on any modern systems like Dacron.

It is interesting to note that the German gliders built in 1973 still had seemingly the same fabric covering system consisted of cotton fabric, clear dope, alkyd based sealer and paint as in the case of Me110, according to a detailed technical report by Vultee Aircraft in 1941 which can be downloaded from the Technical section.

In that case fabric covering procedures in the AC43 weren't very much useful.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Ppopsie,

>Since after I started this thread, I have found the following test report from naca about the TBF Avenger.

Highly interesting!

From the summary: "Flutter did not occur when the installation was stiffened to prevent chordwise motion or when the bending frequency of the aileron system was appreciably higher than that of the wing as in the complete airplane installation."

The bending frequency of the aileron system depended on its stiffness and its mass - so keeping them "light" (mass-wise and weight-wise would generally result in a high bending frequency.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[ppopsie]

Thanks HoHun,

I have never imagined the c/g position of aileron ABOVE hinge line affects like that. It was probably because the TBF lacks trailing edge bolt at the wing folding position. According to the report wing tortional stiffness was adequate but cordwise rigidity was not enough.

It is interesting to me too.
Best regards,

Nao (Ppopsie)