Why no heavier RAF machine gun calibres? (2 Viewers)

[yulzari]

Major Denis Bloodnock was far from a stick in the mud Colonel Blimp. Indeed he was completely open to any idea that came with an anonymous envelope containing paper of the realm and doubtless would disappear with the Treasury funds for the project to boot.

"I'm lost, dear fellow, lost, completely lost. Me and the regiment were marching along, you know, and suddenly, quite by accident, me and the regimental funds took the wrong turning."

"The screens, nurse! Quick, the screens! It's happening again"

"Aaagh! No more curried eggs for me!"

"I behaved like an absolute bounder and a cad. It's the only way you can enjoy yourself these days."

 

[PAT303]

That is by far the best laugh I have had in weeks.

There are many documents claiming that the P-38 and P-47 were the fighters that won the war. ALL written by Americans and all totally biased in their content. Same for all the other The XX that won the war books and articles written by Americans - ALWAYS it was an American XX. There is even one out there on how the SCR-522 radio won the war. Absolutely ZERO mention of it being a BRITISH radio though.

For a truly unbiased view of the most important allied fighter in WW2, the one that did the most to change the course of the war, that is the one that could claim to have won the war read the official British history of the ww2 air war (The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany 1939-1945), written by a Brit (Anthony Frankland) who was a ww2 RAF veteran and who went on to resurrect the Imperial War Museum.

His opinion, spelt out in detail, is the fighter that "won the war" was the P-51.

Of course the P51 won the war, if it wasn't for the Mustang so many of the major battles from 1939 onwards would have been lost, The Battle of France, Battle of Britain, Africa and middle East, over Malta and across the MTO, the Pacific theatre, the P51 won it all.

 

[MiTasol]

Major Denis Bloodnock was far from a stick in the mud Colonel Blimp. Indeed he was completely open to any idea that came with an anonymous envelope containing paper of the realm and doubtless would disappear with the Treasury funds for the project to boot.

"I'm lost, dear fellow, lost, completely lost. Me and the regiment were marching along, you know, and suddenly, quite by accident, me and the regimental funds took the wrong turning."

"The screens, nurse! Quick, the screens! It's happening again"

"Aaagh! No more curried eggs for me!"

"I behaved like an absolute bounder and a cad. It's the only way you can enjoy yourself these days."

You are right of course. The difference between Blimp and Bloodnok is the former was a pompous blowhard who was totally opposed to military reform and the latter outright criminal.

I chose Bloodnok because, to me, grounding all the cannon armed Spitfires and Hurricanes in 1940 when Britain was suffering badly from LW raids was outright criminal. The cause of that was the decisions were made by pompous blowhards so Blimp is more appropriate.

 

[MiTasol]

Of course the P51 won the war, if it wasn't for the Mustang so many of the major battles from 1939 onwards would have been lost, The Battle of France, Battle of Britain, Africa and middle East, over Malta and across the MTO, the Pacific theatre, the P51 won it all.

Yeah yeah yeah.

The P-38, P-47, Browning M2 and all those other American weapons that single handedly won the war were all totally operational and trouble free in August 1939. NOT.

And all were recognised by unbiased NON American experts who had access to all the records and who were physically there and involved at the time (so could speak from experience) as being the weapon that won the war. NOT.



The P-51 was recognised by a NON American expert who did have access to all the records and who was physically there and who was physically involved at the time as a crew member on RAF bombers in combat missions over the continent as being the aircraft that was the most important allied fighter in WW2.

Unlike the self proclaimed experts he never made the ludicrous, idiotic and moronic claim that any aircraft, or bomb, or any other weapon won the war. Just that the the P-51 was the most important allied fighter in WW2. For your purposes maybe he should have qualified it as in the ETO but it is still the only aircraft to be given a golden review by a real expert with real combat experience and access to all the records.

To quote you yourself with minor editing to show the "intelligence" in your reply. Of course the insert the American weapon of your choice - for example late 1943 Browning M2 won the war, if it wasn't for the late 1943 Browning M2 so many of the major battles from 1939 onwards would have been lost, The Battle of France, Battle of Britain, Africa and middle East, over Malta and across the MTO, the Pacific theatre, the late 1943 Browning M2 won it all.

And don't forget Dunkirk - the late 1943 Browning M2 (or other US weapon that single handedly won the war of your choice) really saved the day there.

 

[ThomasP]

To be fair to authors everywhere,

It is difficult to sell a book if you call it "The P-XX: the aircraft that had a middling effect on the outcome of the war and was significantly beaten out by the P-XX and/or P-XX". Or maybe "The P-XX: Another Also-Ran". Or maybe "The P-XX: Good Try".

 

[Shortround6]

Trying to sell books is one thing, getting clicks on a youtube video works with a title like "The P-XX, a waste of Aluminum and factory space!!!" does work at times

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

What awaited the British shipbuilders in 1940.

Like WWII in WWI the US undertook a major merchant ship building program. Like the associated WWI naval program it delivered most of the ships post war. In early 1917 the US had 37 shipyards building steel ships and 24 building wooden ones, by the armistice there were 341 shipyards. A schematic says around 300,000 tons of merchant ships built by the US in 1916, 750,000 in 1917, 1.3 million in 1918, 3.3 million in 1919, nearly 4 million in 1920, 2.25 million in 1921 and under 750,000 in 1922. The Emergency Fleet Corporation built 2,318 vessels. No one should be too surprised the US could do better a generation later and that the overhang from WWI depressed the ship building industry before the trade collapse of the economic depression. In 1922 the US had 11 million GRT of shipping employed on foreign trade, in 1935 around 4.5 million.

"Very few" merchant ships were built in the US between 1922 and 1937, mainly passenger ships and tankers. The depression meant 1930's US merchant seamen were almost back to the conditions of the 1890's in terms of pay and treatment. Strikes in 1936-37 resulted in improvements. In 1936 of the 6 biggest merchant fleets the US was fourth in tonnage, sixth in terms of vessels 10 or more years old and fifth in terms of vessels capable of 12 or more knots. In 1937 about 400 out of 1,500 US merchant ships were engaged in foreign trade.

The Maritime Commission initial objective was 50 new cargo ships a year for 10 years, with defence features, adequate crew quarters and "be the finest, fastest, safest ships on the sea." The law establishing the Commission was signed on 29 June 1936, the first commissioners appointed on 26 September and the law came into effect on 26 October. First orders being placed in 1937, it looks like a lot of the early work was coming up with standard designs. So it was ready to go well before the US entry into WWII, 28 ships delivered in 1939 including 12 C2 and 2 C3-E cargo and 7 T3 tankers, 54 in 1940, including 5 C1 Cargo, 8 C2 Cargo, 12 C3 Cargo, 5 C3-E Cargo, 2 C3 Passenger and Cargo and 5 T3 Tanker.

"A Statistical Summary of Shipbuilding under the U.S. Maritime Commission during World War II" by Gerald J Fischer, all up 164 pages of figures and text, from January 1939 to December 1945. The report covers 5,601 Commission, 111 private (95 tankers) and 65 foreign builds (all freighters) making up a total of 5,777 ships, from large passenger liners to unpowered barges, 56,291,678 DWT, 39,919,523 GRT, 22,218,130 Light Displacement Tons. Apart from the ships the commission helped add another 273 building berths to the yards.

236 Keels laid in 1941 including 121 emergency cargo and 40 tankers
1,133 Keels laid in 1942 including 654 emergency cargo and 79 tankers
1,953 Keels laid in 1943 including 1,194 emergency cargo and 229 tankers
1,661 Keels laid in 1944 including 656 emergency cargo and 214 tankers.

The tankers were very important given the military fuel requirements, 7,499,000 GRT.

EC2-S-C1 Liberty averages 441 feet 6 inches long, 56 feet 10.75 inches beam, 27 feet 8.875 inches draft loaded, 11 knots, single screw, 10,600 DWT, 7,187 GRT, 3,711 light displacement tons. Of the yards that built EC2-S-C1 in bulk, North Carolina was the cheapest at $1,544,000 per ship, St. Johns River the most expensive at $2,099,000 each.

Sort of worried about the cumulative war loss chart, what is the starting position, how are the fleets of France, USSR, Norway etc. counted? Since the axis in Europe seemed to target countries with large merchant fleets the "British" merchant fleet dry cargo only declined from 14.4 million GRT in September 1939 to 11.8 million in December 1942, tankers from 3.2 million to 3 million GRT, despite all the losses. Lloyds thinks the allies lost around 15,000,000 GRT to end 1942, plus 1,140,000 GRT captured, neutrals lost 1,400,000 GRT, the Maritime Commission says it delivered 6,664,000 GRT 1940 to 1942, Britain another 3,200,000 GRT. The tanker losses taken in 1942 meant it was well into the second half of 1943 before the tanker fleet recovered. Not sure how the overall shipping deficit ended up at nearly 12,000,000 GRT in 1942.

With all this there is what is being measured, the US Great Lakes tonnages for example, the minimum size of ship. According to the British for ships of 1,600 GRT or more, ocean going, the world had 56,803,000 GRT as of 1939, with over 12 million owned by axis powers and over 2 million by neutrals as of end 1942 (Mostly Sweden and Spain), that leaves around 42,000,000 GRT total possible allied fleet at the start of the war and it is down to 31,000,000 GRT end 1942?

 

[PAT303]

Just that the the P-51 was the most important allied fighter in WW2.

Any expert who claims that doesn't get my time. The war was won by the Spitfire Hurricane P40 and Wildcat, they were the fighters that even though were not the best or worst were there to do the heavy lifting when the Allied nations needed them the most. The P51 might have been the best allied fighter of the war but it definitely wasn't the most important.

 

[gruad]

Consider, if the Computer system worked against a target at a 400= MPH closing speed. then all of the B-29 losses would be from flak or mechanical failure.
I know if I was behind the sight, I would use all the guns I had to protect my crew and save nothing.

Overall conclusion was B29 computed gunnery was remarkably effective

There's a YouTube somewhere that goes into this

 

[MIflyer]

What good is the saved ammo if you are in flames?

Quoting a WW2 8th AF B-17 tail gunner:

"They don't pay us more if we bring back some ammo!"

 

[MIflyer]

The war was won by the Spitfire Hurricane P40 and Wildcat, t

The war was "not lost" because of the Spitfire, Hurricane, P-40 and Wildcat. You could say that the 8th AF bombing offensive was saved by the P-47 and P-38 with drop tanks and triumphed because of the P-51.

 

[Alan Stevens]

Any expert who claims that doesn't get my time. The war was won by the Spitfire Hurricane P40 and Wildcat, they were the fighters that even though were not the best or worst were there to do the heavy lifting when the Allied nations needed them the most. The P51 might have been the best allied fighter of the war but it definitely wasn't the most important.

Also P-38 and P-47. Those all did the work during the "meat grinder" part of the war that broke the back of the Axis, long before the P-51 showed up.

 

[Alan Stevens]

Quoting a WW2 8th AF B-17 tail gunner:

"They don't pay us more if we bring back some ammo!"

That is why so much ordnance was dropped onto/into the Yamato.

Biggest battleship in the world. They weren't going to take any ordnance back home.

 

[PAT303]

The war was "not lost" because of the Spitfire, Hurricane, P-40 and Wildcat. You could say that the 8th AF bombing offensive was saved by the P-47 and P-38 with drop tanks and triumphed because of the P-51.

WW2 started in October 1939, P51B's did their first missions with the 8th AF March 1944? correct me if I'm wrong so to say the war was ''not lost'' because of the contributions the Spit Hurri P40 and Wildcat provided for 4 years before the P51 flew the missions it's most noted for is derogatory at best.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

WW2 started in October 1939, P51B's did their first missions with the 8th AF March 1944? correct me if I'm wrong so to say the war was ''not lost'' because of the contributions the Spit Hurri P40 and Wildcat provided for 4 years before the P51 flew the missions it's most noted for is derogatory at best.

If the war wasn't over in Dec 1943 when the P-51 debuted as an escort, it stands to reason that the earlier fighters did not win it.

I find the idea that any one piece of kit won the war to be sloppy thinking.

 

[MIflyer]

I find the idea that any one piece of kit won the war to be sloppy thinking.

Indeed, if the pilots who had the P-39, P-40, P-64, P-66 etc. to fly in training had to go fly P-51's and P-47's in the ETO straight from flying the AT-6 (like so many of the 1941 P-40 pilots in the PI had to do) , the "performance" of the P-51 and P-47 would have been not nearly as good.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm going out on a limb here but I think the post that started this latest exchange was meant sarcastically.

 

[MiTasol]

If the war wasn't over in Dec 1943 when the P-51 debuted as an escort, it stands to reason that the earlier fighters did not win it.

I find the idea that any one piece of kit won the war to be sloppy thinking.

Exactly, which is why Anthony Frankland called the P-51 the most important allied fighter in WW2. Among other things it gave the bombers an edge far beyond what the P-38 and P-47 did. Further it did that with half the fuel burn and was a significantly smaller target for the German defenders to find and neutralise.

As I stated earlier Unlike the self proclaimed experts he (Frankland) never made the ludicrous, idiotic and moronic claim that any aircraft, or bomb, or watch, or any other weapon won the war. Just that the the P-51 was the most important allied fighter in WW2.

 

[SaparotRob]

Mustang is too dang pretty for its own good.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Mustang is too dang pretty for its own good.

If looks could kill, both the 'Stang and the Spit' would be on death row.