Why so few planes that fired thorugh the propeller hub?

[DonL]

Theoretical and unprovable - it's also possible that had the Germans had air services operating through the '20s the development of their aero engines and other technologies would have gone in a completely different direction. In fact, more than likely, they would have been as war weary and bankrupt as the other major powers, so that their air services would have been just as poorly funded and forced to use left-over WW1 technology for years afterwards.

Do you have any single clue about German history between 1919-1933?
Germany was the most bankrupted major country through the Versaille Treaty, reparations, Ruhr occupation, inflation and later the world economy crises, nevertheless they could develop something like the Panzerschiffe and start to develop advanced aero engines since 1929 as they were totaly bankrupted.

Your argumentation is absurd and as always in your posts anti german bias! It is obvious that many members in this forum react totaly with anti german bias, when it comes to obvious german technology advantages, they will be always denied or negated, because of national biases.

You expect wrong and you don't listen or read. The German air force did NOT start from scratch in 1935.

That is a misconception you have being either believing or trying to foist off for quite a period of time.

The Luftwaffe had hundreds of aircraft IN SERVICE in 1934. They started design and construction of aircraft in 1932-33 if not before. The Dornier F first flew May 7th 1932, it was renamed the Dornier 11 in 1933 and the first production examples were completed in late 1933. In Oct 1933 they established an auxiliary bomber group. By March 1st 1934 the auxiliary bomber group had only 3 Do 11s due to late delivery of engines to Dornier but had 24 Ju 52/3e bombers.
The Arado 65a prototype fighter first flew in 1931, the Arado 65d first flew in 1932 and production models (65e) were being delivered in 1933.
Heinkel had a number of designs in production before 1934. I have listed them before but you chose to keep repeating the claim that the Germans didn't even start to re-arm until 1935. A very easily refuted form of revisionism.

And what do you want to tell us with your post? Other countrys had nevertheless at least a 10 years advantage from 1919-1929! So the next absurd post!

 

[Shortround6]

The Germans did start from behind some other nations but they DID NOT START IN 1935.

That is false and any look at German types of aircraft easily shows it.

If you call stating the truth about when Germany started to rearm "absurd" what are you trying to push?

The Allied nations (except for Russia) did have the decade from 1919-1929 to gain design experience with engines, airframes and armament. Most of them didn't advance very far during those 10 years and most of what was learned was pretty much on the open market. The Siemens Big radial being a licence built Bristol Jupiter and the BMW 132 was a licensed P W Hornet. But the Germans started from scratch designing aircraft engines in 1935????

The actual engine designs from 1919-1929 were out of date by 1939 and only the Wright Cyclone and Bristol Mercury and Pegasus powered first line aircraft by 1939-40. AND all three of those engines had seen considerable modification.

The Germans did design and build some advanced engines, airframes and weapons in the WW II period ( and surface equipment too) but lets please knock of off the bull***t that they were such geniuses that they did it all starting in 1935.

 

[DonL]

I haven't said with one word they start at 1935!
They start at 1929-1930 but with very very little budget. The real increased budget to develop was not comming until 1933 with the takeover.

This are facts you can read in any good researched book. The USA, GB and France had at least 10 years advance from develop tools, engines and in general could experiment in different directions. The german aero industry (through the nazi aggressiveness) had no time to experiment, they must develop first rate engines (and no inline engine was on the free market), production tools and good a/c's from the start with very very little zones to do mistakes, to be competetive.

 

[Shortround6]

You did not say 1935 but another forum member has said it and said a number of times even after being repeatedly shown that a number of German aircraft types were starting production in 1933.

You have shown me a number of things I did not know before and I thank you for that.

A lot is made of the engine type inline vs radial, that is actually not where some of the important developments took place. It is in the details like better valve springs, sodium cooled valves, better alloys, better bearings, constant speed propellers (which the Germans licensed while the British ignored them for several years), the Germans did a marvelous job with fuel injection.
All nations benefited from better lubricating oil instead of using WW I or early 20s medical grade castor oil. Pressure oil lubrication of valve gear instead of grease fittings. If nothing else German engineers could look at some other coutries 1920s engines and see how NOT to do things.

the octane scale was not introduced until the late 20s, without that advances in compression or boost went nowhere.

German engineers did do great work on their engines but they were NOT picking up where they left off in 1918, any more than the airframe makers were starting where they left off in 1918. There was a lot of movement of individual between countries and companies and a lot of information going back and forth ( some German ideas/techniques being used in other counties) at least until several years into the Nazi regime.

 

[DonL]

I agree with your post.

Many things were no secrets and the german engineers learned a lot from foreign countries at the inter war period.

What irritate me, you can "appreciate" a good work or performance other members can't.

The advertisement of the german inlines (1929) was from the beginning upside down and able to connect a cannon between the cylinders.
Now we can discuss if the complexity was worth it, but what it is realy obvious "you" have much more flexibility.
Without the engine cannon the Bf 109 F or G would be far away from it's aerodynamics and also at the whole Tank 152 project the engine cannon plays a major role.

To me the engine cannon was an advantage and I think, if technical engineers from Junkers and DB had argumented against the cannon, because of too much complexity, the RLM had droped it. We can look and see this at the FW 190 A and FW 190D-9, but I think without a engine cannon, I have my doubts about a production Bf 109 later then 1942.

 

[Njaco]

oh cool! A thread where EVERYONE gets banned!! Makes it easier for us Mods.

and thanks for convincing me that changing my siggy was needed.

 

[DonL]

What is your intention Njaco?
As you have seen, some clear words could adjust the atmosphere, SHR6 and I needed not more then 3-4 post and all is good.
Why it is such a problem at this forum to argument sometimes a little bit harder to get good results or to to hustle someone to rethink his posts?

We are all not made of porcelain and nobody has made serious insults. Sometimes I beg you, to handle the reins a little more easy.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

DonL, we are just tired of the same people fighting over and over.

Do you know how many complaints we recieve about the same people over and over? Did you know that several good members have left, and told us before that it is because if the same people over and over.

Frankly I am tired of the tit for tat anti/pro German/Allied BS bickering from you, Aozora and a few others. You guys act like a bunch of Kindergartners. Actually I know kids that behave better.

Both of you, and some others need to grow up. If someone farts you call them "Anti German". If some disagrees with Aozora, they are a revisionist.

People don't want to read pages of "My dad could beat up your dad" BS. Discuss the facts and quit bitching. It detracts from the thread.

 

[DonL]

Sorry, if have done harm to this forum with my posts, I apologize.
Seriously, I haven't realised it and it wasn't at any time my goal or intention.

To me a discussion isn't only monotone, sometimes an issue could race my blood and at any discussion I have seen this (from me and other discussion members) as an enrichment. Perhaps I underlay the impression, that I'm sometimes the last corrective if it comes to german WWII technology, after so much other members were banned. But this could be a very personal impression and not objective.

I have had my fights with Parsifal with a bunch of issues, but several times we have come (Parsifal and me) to an "agreement" also with Stona. Also I think my goal was most of the time to bring forward informations to all members.

I can accept your argumentation, but to me, for a healthy discussion sometines it could be a little more "agressive", if you have something to post/provide.
If this is a bad reputation for this forum, or you are qualifying this as Kindergarden, I don't will post much in the future, because as I have written above it wasn't neither my goal nor my intention.

I realy like this forum and I have appreciated many discussions.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

All we ask is that you all remain civil.

Is that too much to ask?

And again the others were not banned because they were "pro German", they were banned because of being told over and over agsin to act civil.

A discussion can be "aggressive" as you call it, without insulting or belittling others. You are not the only one. There are several others. Some are "pro allies".

Some purposly try and bait you "pro German" guys to draw you into a fight in order to get you banned. That also is not tolerated.

 

[DonL]

All we ask is that you all remain civil.

Is that too much to ask?

And again the others were not banned because they were "pro German", they were banned because of being told over and over agsin to act civil.

A discussion can be "aggressive" as you call it, without insulting or belittling others. You are not the only one. There are several others. Some are "pro allies".

Some purposly try and bait you "pro German" guys to draw you into a fight in order to get you banned. That also is not tolerated.

No!

I can see your argument, but you should also "respect" (sorry I have no other word), which memebers are "insulting" each others, and what they have done in the past to control their differences. I bet a month salary, that nobobdy of your moderators have ever believed that Parsifal and me come at anytime to a heathy discussion culture, and I don't want to be at anytime arrogant, but we have provided many different sources and argumentations (to several issues) and many members could have built their own opinion. To me something like this is an enrichment to "any" forum.

Anyway I have understood your message and I will do my best to take it seriously at the future, but I can't guarantee it, if my spirit will go through with me, but I hope I have explained from which "side" I come.

Thanks for this very enlightening discussion (Seriously)!

 

[Njaco]

I have no problem with discussion.

I have a problem with the name-calling, the hurtful sarcasm and the constant "pro-Allied" stance that this forum is constantly being accused of.

Its one thing to forcefully discuss the topic but altogether another issue when some just don't like the tone of some members (which in my opinion is the majority of the attacks on Parsifal. Unlike everyone else who attacks him, he will change his opinion if you bring facts to the table which RARELY happens!) I'm just tired of reading a good thread only to have it blown up because this "one is an idiot" or that "one has no clue".

And just so we are clear: I like the Luftwaffe (I'm sure Adler does also). I have numerous books about the Luftwaffe and models of the planes. Ask Marcel, he has been to my home. I am not anti-German. There is no bias here. People are banned because of the way they act and not because of some conspiracy to weed the membership of pro-Germans. Its ridiculous and anybody who believes that obviously has a poor research technique or they would have found the reasons for those who were banned.

and I'm getting tired of having to explain this over and over.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Anyway I have understood your message and I will do my best to take it seriously at the future, but I can't guarantee it, if my spirit will go through with me, but I hope I have explained from which "side" I come.

If it can't be said without insulting someone, then don't say it. If you can't do that, then maybe you should post someplace else. Simple as that.

As we have said, no more warnings will be given to anyone of the repeat offenders. That I can guarantee...

I have no problem with discussion.

I have a problem with the name-calling, the hurtful sarcasm and the constant "pro-Allied" stance that this forum is constantly being accused of.

Its one thing to forcefully discuss the topic but altogether another issue when some just don't like the tone of some members (which in my opinion is the majority of the attacks on Parsifal. Unlike everyone else who attacks him, he will change his opinion if you bring facts to the table which RARELY happens!) I'm just tired of reading a good thread only to have it blown up because this "one is an idiot" or that "one has no clue".

And just so we are clear: I like the Luftwaffe (I'm sure Adler does also). I have numerous books about the Luftwaffe and models of the planes. Ask Marcel, he has been to my home. I am not anti-German. There is no bias here. People are banned because of the way they act and not because of some conspiracy to weed the membership of pro-Germans. Its ridiculous and anybody who believes that obviously has a poor research technique or they would have found the reasons for those who were banned.

and I'm getting tired of having to explain this over and over.

Ditto...

Now back to watching Vick loose the game for the Eagles.

 

[DonL]

I agree with your post Njaco.

The examples between me and Parsifal were examples! It wasn't at anytime my intention to denigrate him , more the opposite!
If you have read many threads from us the last 1 year you will see this.
We will be not "lovers" in the future, but I think we respect each other and this was the goal to several hard discussions.

Also I have with NOT one word said that other members were banned of their pro german view.
I have only assess that I'm to my opinion one of the last remaining "pro german" (to german technology) corrective, nothing else!
This was no accusation, it was only my personal feeling, which could be wrong!

Sometimes I have the feeling you (all moderators) have a very long rein, and sometimes especially in this thread the reins are very very short, because the dicussion hasn't realy developed. That's somtimes very irritating.

 

[silence]

I think the point our (probably overworked) moderators are trying to make is simply that arguments can (and even perhaps should) be aggressive, but the presentation of these arguments need to remain civil. Its simple to say but sometimes very difficult to achieve.

And, Don, this forum is very fair compared to far too many others. I can think of one in particular that I peruse but do not participate simply because the bias of the members, moderators, and site owners is, in my eyes, far too extreme.

Personally, I troll forums for a long time before I decide if it is worth my time to participate actively; this site, for example, I followed for at least a year before joining. (Otherwise, I'd have a lot more posts!!)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Sometimes I have the feeling you (all moderators) have a very long rein, and sometimes especially in this thread the reins are very very short, because the dicussion hasn't realy developed. That's somtimes very irritating.

Because if we don't have "short reins", then this thread will become like all the other threads...

You: You are clueless!

Them: You are a revisionist!

You: You don't know what you are talking about!

Them: More Ueber German BS!

You: You are just an Anti German!

And in the end no one has learned anything, just a thread of bickering BS...

That is the course of so many threads.

I am finished discussing this. Get this thread back on topic, do it civil, or the thread is closed!

 

[Shortround6]

I apologize for a getting a bit sarcastic at times. I try to keep an open mind and argue facts (or at least time lines). My feelings are that ALL countries had people that had somegood ideas and some bad ideas. I am talking about technical stuff here and leaving politics out of it.
Sometimes there was more than one way to reach a certain goal and different countries/companies took different routes. It doesn't mean either one was wrong. Later developments sometimes affect how we perceive things now, but were anything but clear at the time when some decisions were made.
AS an example, I have been fairly critical of some French engines in another thread. They happen to be among the oldest basic engines in use in WW II. They way they were designed may have made good sense in the late 20s when 70-77 octane was as good as the fuel got. Why build a heavy engine capable of standing up to high cylinder pressures if the available fuel will not allow high cylinder pressures? They knew better fuels were coming, but they didn't know when. The choices they made were valid choices when the engines were designed. Problems came when they had factories tooled up for these engines and they were "stuck" with a basic design that didn't have a lot of growth. The designers were not stupid or dumb, the country they were from is not a stupid or dumb country.
The same with many German or Allied engines or designs, it takes years to go from drawing board to service use and often things beyond the designers control changed.

No engine, airplane, gun, tank, or ship is "better" simply because it was made by one country or another. And no engine, airplane, gun, tank, or ship is "worse" because of it's country of origin. Each one has to stand on it's own merits and in the time it was conceived/used few aircraft managed to have careers that spanned 10 years in front line service from 1935-45.

Hopefully this forum is a place where we can work towards some sort of "truth" instead of some of the partisan press release stuff that was published in past years (Forked Tail Devils and 400mph P-40s,etc) we may not agree exactly but there should be more room in the middle than on the fringes.

The US made some very good airplanes, It also made some real clangers ( junk), which makes me suspicious of "paper" airplanes that never flew. Claims that one country's engineers were "better" or didn't make mistakes probably won't stand up.

BTW I have had A BMW motorcycle, A German Ford Capri, several older German cameras and a number of German rifles and pistols. While I would take the BMW over a Triumph Bonneville as a day to day machine the BMW cracked it's frame 3 times in exactly the same spot due to vibration in under 24,000 miles and couple of the rifles have a flaw or two that casts doubt on "German engineering". Over all they were very good but they were not infallible.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

BTW I have had A BMW motorcycle, A German Ford Capri, several older German cameras and a number of German rifles and pistols. While I would take the BMW over a Triumph Bonneville as a day to day machine the BMW cracked it's frame 3 times in exactly the same spot due to vibration in under 24,000 miles and couple of the rifles have a flaw or two that casts doubt on "German engineering". Over all they were very good but they were not infallible.

You are clueless! You are anti German!

See how it goes...

 

[DonL]

Because if we don't have "short reins", then this thread will become like all the other threads...

You: You are clueless!

Them: You are a revisionist!

You: You don't know what you are talking about!

Them: More Ueber German BS!

You: You are just an Anti German!

And in the end no one has learned anything, just a thread of bickering BS...

That is the course of so many threads.

I am finished discussing this. Get this thread back on topic, do it civil, or the thread is closed!

Ok, I have got it, that I have received a yellow red card (from soccer)!

The next time I don't will write: Do you have any single clue about German history between 1919-1933?
I will write: Are you aware about german history between 1919-1933?!

It is difficult and hard, but I will do it, promised!

 

[Shortround6]

I am also a really slow typist,

Several posts while I was getting through that and I don't have the excuse of having to look up something