Why so few single engine Hercules applications?

[Deleted member 68059]

I always associate the Fedden Mission as a investigation of aero engines in occupied Germany. Fedden wrote an article on Flight Global on these engines of enormous value to historians and non of his abrasiveness came through.

Yes they were both pretty much called the same thing, so its an understandable confusion.

 

[pbehn]

Yes they were both pretty much called the same thing, so its an understandable confusion.

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Was Fedden related to L.J. K. Setright? They seem to be the same person in different eras.

 

[Simon Thomas]

P & W post war production of R-2800s helps explain the longevity/dominance of American engine engines in the commercial market.
1946-472
1947-1172
1948-956
1949-478
1950-546
1951-817
1952-1056
1953-2522
1954-2086
1955-764
1956-583
1957-691
1958-384
1959-3
1960-7

over 12,500 R-2800 engines.

The Hercules was in production until 1968 when Rolls-Royce took over, and they refused the orders they received.

I find it interesting that there are many who criticise the complicated, unreliable Hercules and there are quite a few examples of pilots flew them and mechanics who worked on them who say they are amazing reliable and easy to work on.

Obviously this is good news for both sides, as they is plenty of evidence to support whichever side of the fence you wish to sit on.

However it would be nice to have some real evidence to rely on.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Hastings had a long career, flying with the RAF into the late 1970s. I wonder if any went to surplus commercial use.

 

[Shortround6]

I find it interesting that there are many who criticise the complicated, unreliable Hercules and there are quite a few examples of pilots flew them and mechanics who worked on them who say they are amazing reliable and easy to work on.

There were a number of different Hercules engines. As in you cannot take an old one and turn it into a new (post war) version with a few tweaks. For one thing they changed the size of main bearings on the crankshaft (which called for a new crankcase, etc).
Some of the cowl designs for the post war aircraft would make a WW II fitter/mechanic green with envy

Routine maintenance may have been much easier than most other radials (no valves to check clearances/adjust).
Other engines change too, Merlins about doubled their time between overhauls during the war despite making more power. Later ones weren't any easier to work on though

The fence may tend to wander a bit depending on the engine and year. Post war commercial engines may be a lot different than 1940-41 engines.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There were a number of different Hercules engines. Post war commercial engines may be a lot different than 1940-41 engines.

I wonder how the postwar SNECMA-manufactured Bristol Hercules 738 used on France's Nord Noratlas differed from the British-made engines.

 

[Koopernic]

So 1.600 Bristol-powered types...compared to over 16,000 DC-3s. The DC-3 was, and remains, an all-time great aircraft and it was built in such huge quantities that there was always a plentiful spares supply. Economies of scale likely had a much greater impact on what so many DC-3s survived compared to other types, and hence why Curtiss and P&W engines were around a lot longer than Bristols. It's a lot easier to keep a type airborne if it's one of a production run of 16,000 compared to a production run of 425 for the most-produced of the types you listed. Again, you're not going to fit Bristols to a DC-3 if you have a plentiful supply of Curtiss or P&W alternatives...and there was that plentiful supply. Quantity has a quality all its own.

Pratt & Whitney R1830 - Australian National Aviation Museum (aarg.com.au)
173,618 R-1830s were produced making it the most produced. The DC3/C47 and B24 were the main consumers.

 

[MIflyer]

The R-2000 used by the C-54 was in fact a slightly modified R-1830 with a little more displacement in case it had to refuel at some outback airport that did not have high octane fuel. Note that small aircraft engines desigend in the 30's and 40's were certified on the basis of 73 octane gasoline.

 

[SaparotRob]

Was Fedden related to L.J. K. Setright? They seem to be the same person in different eras.

That's a name I haven't heard for a while.

 

[rinkol]

Well, let's face it, folks. When the first PBY purchased by the British arrived in the U.K. a reporter attending the event said that it could not have flown very far because the nacelles were not covered with oil.

When the Short Sunderland Mk V came out the crews were delighted to find they could complete one of their long missions and come back with all four engines still running.

British radials often did not inspire confidence.

The Pegasus powered Sunderlands seem to have been a bit short on power. Aside from this, Lumsden's book mentions that operation over a significant range of rpm was not recommended because of vibration issues. It seems that it was necessary to run these engines more or less continuously at full throttle.

 

[merlin]

The Saro Lerwick is probably one of the earliest Hercules powered aircraft to have flown - making its appearance in th autumn of 1938. That the type did not last long is more to do with its design rather than the engine.
Sadly, we'll never know how it would have performed as a fighter - the most favoured design for the 4 x 20mm cannon spec. was the Boulton Paul P.88. The 'P.88a was the Hercules powered version, with the P.88b powered by a Vulture engine.. Apparently the Air Ministry ordered one prototype of each, but the Treasury didn't have the funds for all six prototypes selected - so in the event only the Whirlwind was proceeded with.
WI - probably problems with both, early Hercules didn't have the expected power, however, if after Assurances from Bristol a small batch were ordered for armament testing - after all installing 20mm cannons wasn't without problems - lol. A bigger order could follow - once the better powered engines were in prospect.

 

[Tord55]

I suppose that's why the Blenheims were crated and shipped to Malaya rather than flown there, despite Britain having the necessary airfields. Here's the route, just ignore the stop in Lisbon needed to force the route to avoid Spain. Total 10,000 miles, at 198 mph cruise speed will require about fifty hours of flight time. Any reliable and well-designed radial would handle fifty flight hours without needing a tear down at the final destination.

No British engine inspires confidence. I had a 1969 Triumph twin, and while over 11 years of I loved that bike, I could never trust it.

I had Yamaha SR500s in my younger years (till a lady rammed my bike in Scotland), and the only thing that occasionally malfunctioned was the fairly complex electric system. My boss as a 20-year old illustrator made, for himself, the lightest Matchless ever, using a home-made aluminum frame, and no generator as those English generators had very short TBO (a battery fed both lights and sparks!). He didn't drive it till his son left home!

 

[pbehn]

That's a name I haven't heard for a while.

His silliness just used to make me laugh, I gave up reading his "output" when he started arguing the huge positives of half ton motorcycles.

 

[SaparotRob]

His silliness just used to make me laugh, I gave up reading his "output" when he started arguing the huge positives of half ton motorcycles.

Was that the motorcycle that in one magazine referred to as the dumbest car ever built? I can't remember the name of bike. They wrote that it's a car that falls down in a car wash. It even had a reverse gear as it was so large.
He referred to his wife as "Lady Pam", right?

 

[pbehn]

Was that the motorcycle that in one magazine referred to as the dumbest car ever built? I can't remember the name of bike. They wrote that it's a car that falls down in a car wash. It even had a reverse gear as it was so large.
He referred to his wife as "Lady Pam", right?

He wrote all sorts of crap, I know some bikes did have reverse gears because they were made for side-cars. The article I was talking about was a lot of nonsense about un-sprung weight, weight and traction etc. Even in cars you don't increase cornering speed by increasing weight but he had his engineering principles like a latter day Fedder. At the time I was still recovering from an accident, if my Suzuki 380 fell over I couldn't pick it up back on its wheels. With a bike weighing half a ton, nothing could ever go wrong, coz you cant put it right.

 

[Simon Thomas]

When the Short Sunderland Mk V came out the crews were delighted to find they could complete one of their long missions and come back with all four engines still running.

I know this was in jest, but is there Costal Command data available that indicates reliability (or lack there-of) of the Pegasus? (Waddington effect comes to mind, but I don't think it gives engine reliability data.)
The Empires had very good success with the Pegasus and Perseus, particularly considering the out of the way places they were operating.

 

[fastmongrel]

He wrote all sorts of crap, I know some bikes did have reverse gears because they were made for side-cars. The article I was talking about was a lot of nonsense about un-sprung weight, weight and traction etc. Even in cars you don't increase cornering speed by increasing weight but he had his engineering principles like a latter day Fedder. At the time I was still recovering from an accident, if my Suzuki 380 fell over I couldn't pick it up back on its wheels. With a bike weighing half a ton, nothing could ever go wrong, coz you cant put it right.

Was that the Quasar bike. It had a wheezy Reliant engine, a tubular frame that looked like it was welded by a blind man on a trampoline, acres of wobbly crack prone glass fibre and a windscreen wiper that flew off at regular intervals.

 

[A.G. Williams]

Sadly, we'll never know how it would have performed as a fighter - the most favoured design for the 4 x 20mm cannon spec. was the Boulton Paul P.88. The 'P.88a was the Hercules powered version, with the P.88b powered by a Vulture engine.. Apparently the Air Ministry ordered one prototype of each, but the Treasury didn't have the funds for all six prototypes selected - so in the event only the Whirlwind was proceeded with.
.

How did that compare with Bristol's own bid for the 4 x 20mm cannon spec, the Type 153 (illustrated in post No.4 of this thread)?

 

[wrenchedmyspanner]

Bristol Type 153, intended for the cannon-fighter spec won by the Whirlwind, but never built.

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Picture by John Dell: John Dell's Aviation Art

Thank you for a link to the artist. His stuff is new to me and I'm always interested in discovering new aviation artists (new to me at least).

 

[SaparotRob]

Was that the Quasar bike. It had a wheezy Reliant engine, a tubular frame that looked like it was welded by a blind man on a trampoline, acres of wobbly crack prone glass fibre and a windscreen wiper that flew off at regular intervals.

Sounds like a group build theme.