SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Just wondering how much difference in maintenance there were between servicing 4 Wright Cyclones of the B-17 v. 1 P&W R2800 Double Wasp engine of the 'Bolt.
"Why the P-47 Thunderbolt, a World War II Beast of the Airways, Ruled the Skies" Smithsonian Magazine
- Thread starter NVSMITH
- Start date
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Exactly the same, to the minute. There, you just read it, so it is a fact.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I knew it! I was afraid of a long complicated answer with gobs of numbers that would make my eyes bleed.
I am still getting my head around a plane that can just reach the German border dropping a one tone bomb on Berlin, That is also a fact, coz Ive read it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Empty weight of a B-17G is about 36,100 pounds.
The maximum takeoff weight is 65,500 pounds.
That works out to 29,400 pounds: crew, fuel, ammunition and bombs.
The B-17 was designed to be capable of a max. bomb load of 17,100 pounds, using a combination of internal and external racks.
It was rarely done, but it could.
Icorps1970
Airman
- 18
- Dec 23, 2013
I think you might look to the damage the P-47 did to the Luftwaffe BEFORE the P-51d was in theater which prevented any Luftwaffe interference with the D-Day landings. I would also recommend a youtube video I recommend ALL of Greg's videos on WW-II aircraft. HE did a whole series on the P-47 not jsut this one.
Black Thursday proved that the B17 could not operate unescorted over Germany. The video above will show that "Black Thursday" could have been avoided had the bomber mafia allowed the P47 to use the available drop tanks.
Then the P47s record in the ground attack role. I suspect it did more real damage to the German war effort at the point where the "rubber meets the road". Since the B-17 and B-24 and the light bombers could not keep the Germans from making war material, but the P47 seriously hampered its arrival at the front.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Snautzer's comment was in reply to a person who stated that the P-47 could do the job of the B-17, along with some "interesting" statistics.
Icorps1970
Airman
- 18
- Dec 23, 2013
I doubt they could get the Germany with that bomb load. So what they could CARRY and what was practical is two different things. The B-17 was probably the best heavy in Europe. But it was not a super bomber.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
True, but for the technology of the day, a P-47 wasn't going to do what a B-17 can do and visa-versa
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I don't think the P-47 did the work making Overlord possible. I think the introduction of the P-51B, along with Doolittle's change in 8AF fighter tactics, were the real differences in seizing air supremacy over Western Europe in the time frame we're looking at. Especially Doolittle's getting the fighters to roam ahead and behind the bombers instead of being tied so closely.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
They could strike German targets in France (or other nearby targets) from England with the above-stated max. load or could carry 6,000 pounds of bombs to Berlin from southern England.
No one said it was a "super bomber", just what it was capable of.
The Lancaster could carry more than the B-17 but the P-47 sure as hell was not going to carry 2,000 pounds of bombs to Berlin from England.
I dont think the P-51D was in service in UK in any numbers before D-Day, the P-51B/C was though. Which drop tanks were available for use on the P-47 at the time of black Thursday? AFAIK there were just unpressurised ferry tanks which couldnt be used at altitude.
That has been thought through, land in Belgium to refuel, taxi to Netherlands to take off.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Of course, the Germans would have let them do it, because it was such an absurd idea, they wanted to be part of history!
Warbirdnutball
Airman 1st Class
- 139
- Aug 14, 2020
Ditto. I'd really like to see it.
Warbirdnutball
Airman 1st Class
- 139
- Aug 14, 2020
Ok, yes the P-47 of any model was a beast. It was designed to be a workhorse of a fighter, called on for many roles. And it answered those calls in many respects. The turbocharger for the P-47 came into it's own at high altitude, making for an excellent escort fighter for bombing raids, with the P-47M being able to reach farther to escort bombers to their targets and back. Yes, the P-51 could too, but as spoken of earlier, the D variant wasn't available until after D-Day. The P-51 couldn't take the punishment that the T-Bolt could and still make it back to base. To me, the P-47 is the winner. I know that there are those who would take the P-51 or the Mosquito. Both are fine aircraft. But please don't knock the revered Thunderbolt. She truly earned her place in history.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
A good friend of mine was with the 82nd Airborn and he said they were in awe at the devastation that the P-47 and Typhoon could do to German troops.
He also added that he had seen many things that were disturbing, but what a P-47 did to soft targets, like exposed troops, was the epitome of nightmares.
He also added that he had seen many things that were disturbing, but what a P-47 did to soft targets, like exposed troops, was the epitome of nightmares.
Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
I have just found this thread.
In tests in '42 and '43, it was found that the Fw-190 was superior to the P-47 below 15,000ft, and that the P-47 was superior above 20,000ft. Let's put American troops ashore in France in early 1943. The Fw-190s bomb and strafe the hell out of them, and the P-47s are sent to intercept. Combat take place in conditions that suit the Fw-190.
In the real war, the turbocharged B-17s and B-24s flew in at well above 20,000ft. The single stage supercharged Bf-109s and Fw-190s climbed to 30,000ft and coped as best as they could with the P-47s 50mph speed advantage. To hell with ruggedness. I want to be 50mph faster.
There was a synergy between B-17s and P-47s.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Except the Typhoon would have eaten the Fw190s alive - down low, the Typhoon was a terror to the 190.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,618
- Dec 6, 2006
Actually, very little. The vast majority of the claims made by P-47s were after the appearance of the P-51B (not D). I would also note that the RAFs Allison powered P-51s were making inroads into the Luftwaffe long before the P-47 showed up.
It is often claimed that the P-47 did the "heavy lifting" before the arrival of the P-51. I would agree that much of the "heavy lifting" was done before the appearance of the P-51, however it wasn't the P47 doing the lifting. The destruction of the Luftwaffe was an extended battle of attrition starting with the Battle of France. The P47 was a very small contributor in this attritional battle up until the end of 1943.
According to the Statistical Digest the 8th AF fighter claims amounted to 458 to the end of 1943. Of these the P-47 contributed 414 with the rest divided among Spitfires, P-38s and P-51s. To put this into persecutive the Luftwaffe had lost ~22,000 aircraft to operational causes up to the end of 1943. If you give the P-47 the benefit of the doubt and assume the claims are actual kills this places the P-47 contribution at a minuscule 2%.
Even if it is assumed that the RAF, VSS and the Armie de Aire contributed nothing to the demise of the Luftwaffe and that the USAAC was solely responsible, the P47 was still a relatively small factor. In 1943 the center of gravity for the western allies was the Mediterranean, not the UK. According to the USAAC Statistical Digest, up to the end of 1943 USAAC MTO Fighters claimed 1351 German aircraft vs 458 claimed in the ETO. Note that the P47 was not serving in the MTO until late December 1943.
Anyone who has read any of my previous posts will realize I am not a fan of the P-38, but the fact of the matter is that prior to 1944 the P-38, P40 and US Spitfires contributed much more to the destruction of the Luftwaffe than the P-47. The P-40s and Spitfires become even more significant if you allow for the RAF and Soviet P-40s and Spitfires occasionally shooting down Luftwaffe aircraft.
It should be noted that the only Fighter Group to have real success with P47 was the 56th, as the following list shows. (I have gleaned this list from various sources and do not claim it to be gospel, if anyone has better information feel free to correct it) In fact, during the time the 31st Fighter Group was flying the lowly Spitfire, it outpaced each and every group flying P-47s with the exception of the 56th.
As for drop tanks, this has been discussed before. The P-47 wasn't capable of escorting the bombers all the way to Schweinfurt in 1943 even with drop tanks. And the "bomber mafia" was ordering drop tanks well before first Schweinfurt mission, they just weren't doing a good job of following up to ensure the tanks were actually being manufactured. They had expected the British to manufacture tanks for them but hadn't told the British that it was very high priority.
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