Why was P-36 so successful in the battle of France?

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Oh so you are saying that the US was on a war footing in 1940?

I don't think that is correct, the Klimov was a Hispano 12Y, just taken down a slightly different development path. The Soviet difficulties in developing the engine further, in spite of significant efforts, are more of a reflection of their difficulties in industrialization and high tech in general, which they did largely overcome during the war. There is a reason why they started out with the French design instead of developing their own inline engine from scratch, as it were. They were going through a very steep learning curve. Their development cycle also reflected the different (lower grade) fuel they used, by necessity.


Again, was USA on a war-footing when the 12Y development was interrupted (or at least, drastically slowed down)?

Ok well, the 14M was used in the successful HS 129 and was selected by the Germans as a replacement for their own Argus As 410. So I don't think it was so bad.


I don't think postwar development of a radial engine is comparable to pre-war or wartime development, it's basically back burner by 1946.
 
I don't think it's fair to make a direct comparison with engines which were intensively developed from the 1930s through 1945 with ones that basically stopped in 1940.

To do so (and to try to rationalize it, no matter how erudite a fashion) is a bit misleading.
 
Read up on the Russian engines again. In 1932-34 the Russians signed deals for license production of the Hispano 12Y, the Gnome-Rhone 14K, the Renault V-12 air cooled, and the Wright R-1820. This was, as you say, to steepen their learning curve. It also gave the Russians access to the improvements made for a number of years after the initial deals were signed which varied in the amount of later improvements passed on. The Russians were not floundering around the tundra in 1935 trying to figure out improvements on their own.
Look at the fuel situation again, in 1932-34 everybody was running on 73 to 87 octane fuel and those years mark the time that 87 octane fuel became a defacto standard until the late 30s. The US lead the way but only to 91 octane. You also didn't even have standard 87 octane fuel in the way that you have "standard" 91 octane and 100 octane fuel by the end of 1940. beginning of 1941.
A lot of people knew better fuel was coming, they didn't know exactly when or what it's actual capabilities were going to be. Russian fuel problems as far as engine development go didn't show up until 1940-42.

Again, was USA on a war-footing when the 12Y development was interrupted (or at least, drastically slowed down)?

I gave one example of the US being on war footing in 1942 to 1943.
How you got 1940 out of that I don't know.
Now we have to define "war footing".
US industry was moving to war footing somewhat faster than many people believe.
The US built 3 times the airframes and engines in 1940 than it did in 1939 and it tripled the production in 1941 over what it had done in 1940 (9 times total) and it roughly tripled things again 1942 (27 times 1939 production) and no it wasn't because of Peral Harbor. Most of the planes built in 1942 were ordered in 1940 or 1941.
So when did the US move to a war footing? For a few hints see Roosevelt's speech of May 16th 1940. See when contracts were signed for brand new engine and airframe factories (like the deal with Packard).
R & D on a lot of French engines was not what it could have been during the 30s, which means trying to play catch up was going to take a few years. The Hispano and G-R engine also had the restriction of trying to incorporate old tooling to keep cost down. And nobody else was trying to up date a 1928 engine with legacy tooling and concepts dating back to 1918. Allison sure wasn't trying to update the Liberty engine.
Ok well, the 14M was used in the successful HS 129 and was selected by the Germans as a replacement for their own Argus As 410. So I don't think it was so bad.
There are a few arguments over that one. But the 14M didn't get sand filters for a while so perhaps it had an excuse.
However we are back to the 14M being a Red Herring on the 14K, 14N, 14R development path.
I don't think postwar development of a radial engine is comparable to pre-war or wartime development, it's basically back burner by 1946.
Depends on which countries.
P & W certainly spent a lot of time and money on piston engines in the late 1940s. Several post war versions of the R-2800, the R-4360, the R-2180 (that one didn't sell well)
Wright spent a lot of time and money on piston engines in the late 1940s like new versions of the R-3350, the R-3350 turbo compound, new versions of the R-1820.
Bristol spent a lot of time and money on new versions of the Hercules and the Centaurus.

They may have been back burner for some military uses but they were key to commercial sales that would keep the companies afloat while military contracts for jets zig-zagged all over the place.
For a few years after WW II ended they were still researching higher performance fuel than 115/145. See Cook Cleland and his Corsairs in the 1948 Thompson Trophy race.
After 1945 they also had a lot better idea of what worked and what didn't and they had much better test instrumentation/test stands/house than they did in 1940.
And the French made just about zero progress in the post war years (money, disrupted factories, general conditions in France ?) or perhaps they over sold the 14R in 1940 and were trying to get a production version up to what they had promised.
Once again, the Hispano dated from 1928 (at best, that was when it was cataloged/announced and not when development started) and it had a 12-18 year run.
The Allison dates from 1930 but had a very protracted (no money) development for most of the 1930s.
The Merlin dates from the early 30s and also had a number of twists and turns before production started in in 1936/37.
The DB 600 and Jumo 211 are both from the early 30s.
The Hispano was simply 8-10 years out of date.
Insisting that this almost antique had much development left is a bit misleading.
So is blaming the poor development history of the Swiss engines solely on the Swiss lack of industry (which seems not to have been true).

Some engines were vary adaptable to upgrading, some were not. Please look at the whole Wright radial line. To keep it simple stick to the R-2600. Once it hit 1600hp that "version" stopped. To get to to 1700hp (and an extra 100rpm) required changing the crankcase from Aluminum to Steel, and basically everything else to go with it. In fact the original factory only built 147 of the new engines before all manufacture of the new engine was transferred to Cincinnati. Old engine stayed in production until just about the end of 1944.
Going to the 1900hp version required another new crankcase and brand new machinery for making the cylinders and cylinder heads. It took 2 years from the 1st R-2600BB test run to the 5th production engine. Granted Wright was trying to manage the R-1820 and R-3350 programs at the same time.

Claiming the French could do what no other in country was able to do either before WW II, during WW II or after WW II seems a bit much.
 
The hagiographic history of Hispano-Suiza admits that the 12Y was a dead end. The 12Z was loosely based in the 12Y and the details of the engineering efforts to get it to work make it clear that it would have taken some time to develop and that Hispano-Suiza had fallen behind the development curve for high-performance aircraft engines.

Two utterly critical elements held the 12Y back (not the only ones). First, the single intake and exhaust ports were maxed out. You couldn't get much more power out of the 12Y because it couldn't breathe fast enough. Second, Birkigt's brilliantly-designed crankshaft was optimized for light weight and was operating right at its limit. Putting more force or RPM into it caused it to flex, vibrate, and break.
 
Oh, dear God, not the Lindy Beige video ...

It's riddled with inaccuracies and has nothing to do with how crew actually handled a French tank.

Truly, truly terrible misinformation.
Glove to take the fired case out?

Most tanks had SA guns. Semi-automatic. Gun ejected the fired case by itself and held the breech lock open until fresh round was inserted. Rim on case tripped a catch and the spring loaded breechblock slammed shut.
 
A bit more on this. You not only had the ports maxed out, valves were maxed out. Only one intake and one exhaust valve per cylinder

Valves were parallel (no incline or angle). You also have a kind of a long stoke and narrow bore. Not as bad as some engines but not good.
HS 12Y................ 150mm X 170mm..........................2 valves
Griffon................ 152mm X 168mm..........................4 valves
DB605................. 154mm X 160mm..........................4 valves
Jumo 211...........150mm X 165mm...........................3 valves
M-105..................148mm X 170/175mm.................3 valves
Just for laughs
R-2800................146mm X 152mm...........................2 valves-hemi head, big angle between the valves.
Allison.................140mm X 152mm............................4 valves, pent roof.

The 12Y had a 3 liter cylinder and most of the other big cylinder engines (not the bottom two) were close. But that is a lot of cylinder to get the exhaust out of and fresh air/fuel into and as you increase rpm you have less time to do it in. This is a big reason that the 12Z, the Russian M-107 and the later Saurer engines all went to 4 valves per cylinder. As the rpm went up you had less time to get the exhaust out and the fresh air in so you needed to increase the size of the valve openings (and the ports and all the other stuff).

As I have point out before you have basic methods for a big increase in power, More rpm or higher boost (or both). Dinking with the existing valves in the existing cylinders isn't going to get you much as they should have been as big as possible to begin with. Same with many of the breathing tricks done to cars or motorcycles. All the port polishing and matching of manifolds/gaskets should have already have been done. A single large aircraft engine cost as much as the running chassis of a luxury automobile. Most of the engines had fixed ignition timing so that was a limitation. The engine had to make a fair amount of torque over a decent rpm band, you can't try to use a camshaft that is too "peaky".
Some existing engines already had certain rpm bands that pilots were supposed to avoid due to vibration.

You are limited at any particular point in time to the fuel you can get and that is going to limit the amount of boost you can use, subject to the engine being able to stand up to the power AND be able to dissipate the heat. The AIr cooled engines had a lot trouble with that one. This is why a number of radial engines only got higher power ratings with new versions of the engines with increased cooling fins.

For some reason around 2400rpm was sort of a nice number, as engines started to rev higher they ran into increased problems with harmonic vibration. Increasing RPM does increase the loads on the reciprocating and rotating parts in proportion to the square of the RPM.
2400rpm = 100 %
2500rpm = 108.5%
2600rpm = 117.3%
2700rpm = 126.5%
2800rpm = 136.1%

And if you have a long wippy crankshaft you get more problems with torsional vibrations.

This is why both Allison and RR wanted to the keep the rpm fixed and work on raising the boost pressure. Yes they sometimes had to make certain parts stronger but they didn't have to keep redoing some of the vibration calculations. Allison did raise the rpm from 3000 to 3200 (maybe they could have gone higher?) but that cost them 27lbs of counterweights added to the crankshaft. And a team had to calculate the size and shape of the new counter weights that were added. And test them.
 
Ok fair enough - 12Y is near it's limits by early 1940, and 12Z may require more than a few months work. I'll buy that.

Which means 1,600 hp engines are out unless there is some scenario with a lot more development time, probably as long as it took to get Allisons or Merlins producing that much.

But from what I understand, later versions of the 12Y (51 and later) were producing 1,100 - 1,200 hp. And if a D.520 or VG.33 are reaching ~340 mph / 540 kph with an 860 hp 12Y-45 engine at ~13,000 ft, I think it's reasonable to assume that a 30% increase in power is enough to allow for a bit more protection and maybe ammunition, and allow for a significant boost in speed.

Also worth noting that the top diving speed of the D.520 was over 500 mph! It's also interesting that the D.520 had been designed for rapid production, and could be made in 7,000 hours, which was half the time as a D.510. My understanding is that the early Spit 1 took about twice that and an early Bf 109 took about 9,000 hours.

It seems like the if the French had a bit more time... their air forces would have been much more formidable.
 
What is the feasibility of making a two speed or two stage 12Y? The Russians added a two speed supercharger to the Klimov M-105 right?
 
Some of these things are certainly possible. How worth while they are I don't know.

Another thing that has soured me on the HS is that I have a number of books in Wilkinson's series "Aircraft Engines of the World" 1941- 1963.
Specifically the 1941, 1944 (2nd edition, after that it became an annual) 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1953 and a few later ones. The war time editions are somewhat pricier.
They are not primary sources and especially the war time editions have a lot of errors depending on the country. some are due to censor ship and others were just there wasn't that much stuff available.
But in regards to some of the French engines (not just H-S) in the 1941 book some of the performance claims are pretty much unbelievable. And in the post war books they seldom go down and they also don't go up much even with the fuel supposedly changed.
The French HS 12Z engines in the post war books are the lightest in weight, use the best fuel and make up to 1800hp for take-off (or a repeated typo?)
Now this wonder engine in 1947 was rated at only using 7.7lbs of boost (45.3in) for take off (100/130 fuel) at 2800rpm using a 2 speed supercharger.
The Spanish HS 12Z-89 (again the type 89 is actually the H-S engine type number for the family, not an individual engine model number.) is about 20kg heavier but since they don't use the same fuel injector pumps and don't use the same magnetos I am not going to read much into that. What I will read into it is that the Spanish engine only makes 1300hp for take off at the same rpm at slightly more boost, 8.6lbs (47.2in) while using 92 octane fuel using a single speed supercharger. The Spanish engine uses the P-S supercharger, the French doesn't say. the chances of getting anywhere near 1800hp out of the prewar H-S supercharger was about zero.
peak power of the Spanish engine in the 1947 edition is 1400hp at 2800rom at 14,800ft (4500meters) boost is not give but may be same as the take-off level of boost?

going back to the French engine and it's two speed supercharger we not only have the rather unbelievable take-off power we are told that the low gear was good for 1600hp at 2800rpm at 8,200ft, maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. High gear is were things get truly unbelievable 1320hp at 28000rpm at 26,200ft (8000meters) and a "normal" rating of 1250hp at 2600rpm at 24,600ft. boost not given.

Please reread that last part. It is a single stage engine. Some pages earlier in the book we have a RR Griffon 74 with a two stage supercharger with intercooler. It was rated at 1420hp at 2600rpm at 20,500ft (6200 meters) The Griffon weighs about 700lbs more. A Griffon 88 (with counter rotating prop shaft and different supercharger gears) is rated at 1365hp at 2600rpm at 26,500ft (8100 meters.) Now "Normal" power is the max continues power not full military power or WEP or what ever. This single stage Hispano engine nearly matches the Griffon and beats two stage Merlins at high altitude. Something is not right. The 1946 book has a few less power ratings for the French H-S engine and the 1947 page is marked revised. The Saurer engines change in each book, The 1946 book lists the Swiss 12Y-51, the 1947 book lists the Saurer YS-2 with 4 valve heads and fuel injection and the 1948 book lists the Saurer YS-4 with variable supercharger, an extra 200rpm (2800) over the YS-2 and is rated on 100/130 fuel. It is rated at 1600hp for take-off at 2800rpm using 8.6lbs of boost.

Now we don't know if there are different size valves, (or cams or ports) we do know there are several different (more than 2) superchargers between the engines, and different fuel injection systems. So I don't expect things to be identical.

The very earliest 12Zs used carburetors in early development.
 
Where does it have that figure? For what its worth the manual has 665 km/h (413 mph).
I am rather suspicious of dive speeds from the 30s and first couple of years into the 40s. Didn't Curtiss claim over 700mph for the P-40 at one time?
At any rate the Curtiss certainly did do over 500mph in testing. Many of the manuals tell the pilots not to exceed 485mph, may have been changed later.
A lot of planes were tested at higher speeds than they were approved for in the manuals. The manual was supposed to keep the pilots out of trouble if they were flying with the CG not exactly centered or something else not quite right.
 
What is the feasibility of making a two speed or two stage 12Y? The Russians added a two speed supercharger to the Klimov M-105 right?

Farman was making their 2-stage S/C by mid-1930s, so at least the plausibility is there.
A 2-speed S/C on itself is not an improvement by default, the fighters were just fine if the S/C used was any good. Hispano's S/C was not a good one, S-P supercharger was a good one, and it circumvented the need for additional low-speed gear by employing the blades that lowered the losses at low altitudes.
Russian M-105 indeed had a 2-speed S/C, still it was a 'worse' engine than the 1-speed supercharged Merlin 3 or V-1710-39, let alone the Merlin 45 or V-1710-81.


Someone was drinking a lot of cool-aid when writing about 1800 HP HS-12Z engines. 1500 HP was the limit. No 2-speed S/C, and still only the 1-stage gearing.
This is probably a mandatory reading about that engine: link
 
An article on the development of the S-35
An article on the development of the S-40 and beyond.
 

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