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Read post 282, it's a well written post on how they actually trained, apparently they didn't get gunnery training. I have read, in the last 40 years, pilots saying the very first time they fired their guns was at a German. I have also read of one pilot who said he got to shoot at his own shadow on the ocean one time before combat and that was it for gunnery training.In terms of the discussion, what is a "mistake". To replace pilot losses at the height of the BoB with pilots who have 200 hours on type and 25 hours of gunnery training you need to start expanding your training schools long before war is declared and send many front line pilots and planes into those schools? Did "Thatch" instigate such a programme or anyone else in the USA? The Battle of Britain was a battle of attrition. The aim of the LW was to destroy the RAF and the aim of the RAF was to destroy so many LW bombers and crews that they gave up. The whole "thing" for the LW was to destroy RAF fighters with pilots quicker than they could be replaced, if you take out the experienced and elite then the new to theatre combatants are easy meat, this is the same in all theatres of warfare. I can accept any discussion of poor training, or lack of training or lack of focus on marksmanship and poor marksmanship. What I cannot accept is that there was no training, that no one cared about lack of training or poor marksmanship and I will not accept that the RAF hit nothing. The "helpful" suggestion that RAF pilots in the BoB should be told to aim for the engines, fuel, or crew compartment is an insult to the intelligence, some of them were aces and they were actually winning in the battle from its start to its end. There is no doubt that the US had an excellent pilot training programme in place by 1943 but its pilots were finishing their training in UK and they had to postpone their Bombing strategy for a long time to achieve it. In the adoration of Thatch I am surprised this wasn't mentioned. Similarly with such brilliant training and marksmanship in US forces they would surely have swept the LW out of Africa in weeks? Why didnt they? I am a great admirer of John S Thatch and all he did, until someone tries to portray everyone else in the world at the time as an imbecile.
There is no USAAC fighter available in 1939 that would be of any use to the limited number of RAF fighter pilots.
If there's any American aircraft available in 1939 that would be useful during the BoB it is the Consolidated PBY Catalina. The German's Seenotdienst (sea rescue service) and their Dornier Do 24 and other seaplanes were able to rescue many downed LW pilots. The RAF could use more PBYs to save more RAF pilots.
Go Grumman! Hey, I'm from Long Island.I think the PBY is a bit big and ponderous for the job. Now a Grumman Goose that would have been ideal small and quite nippy for an amphibian.
The P-36 (Hawk) was quite capable and served France well against the Luftwaffe during the Battle of France.There is no USAAC fighter available in 1939 that would be of any use to the limited number of RAF fighter pilots.
Good point, the few Geese did well with the RAF and RCAF. I'd also say the Grumman Gosling (Widgeon) would be useful too.I think the PBY is a bit big and ponderous for the job. Now a Grumman Goose that would have been ideal small and quite nippy for an amphibian.
With the Martlet, Hellcat and Tarpon (Avenger) the British FAA did very well by Grumman.Go Grumman! Hey, I'm from Long Island.
I forgot the first Grumman fighter to serve under the British Commonwealth, the Canadian-produced G-23 Goblin.Couldn't have said it better myself, Admiral!
A superb aircraft indeed! Perhaps the finest naval aircraft of its type.I forgot the first Grumman fighter to serve under the British Commonwealth, the Canadian-produced G-23 Goblin.
There is no USAAC fighter available in 1939 that would be of any use to the limited number of RAF fighter pilots.
If there's any American aircraft available in 1939 that would be useful during the BoB it is the Consolidated PBY Catalina. The German's Seenotdienst (sea rescue service) and their Dornier Do 24 and other seaplanes were able to rescue many downed LW pilots. The RAF could use more PBYs to save more RAF pilots.
As long as one's not Jewish, for the RAF pilots it's better to be captured by the Germans than by the Japanese.And the Seenotdienst crews took great effort to rescue Allied and Axis pilots (and mariners) alike.
Actually, given "the chops of the channel" the PBY is ideal for the job. It can handle rough water better than the short coupled amphibians and has two major advantages:I think the PBY is a bit big and ponderous for the job. Now a Grumman Goose that would have been ideal small and quite nippy for an amphibian.
And the Seenotdienst crews took great effort to rescue Allied and Axis pilots (and mariners) alike.
They had the Walrus which eventually served in this role. What they didn't have was a properly organised Air Sea Rescue organisation.
The British also targeted and shot down German float planes of the Seenotdienst, usually He 59s, despite them being clearly marked (white with red crosses) and their crews being registered with ICRC in Geneva. This was on the grounds that they were serving as reconnaissance aircraft for the Luftwaffe, a charge always denied by the Germans and one which has little evidence to support it.
Actually, given "the chops of the channel" the PBY is ideal for the job. It can handle rough water better than the short coupled amphibians and has two major advantages:
1) It has a bow mooring station that can be used for fishing people out of the water, keeping them away from the props.
2) The pylon mounted high wing gets the props out of the way of rescue operations.
Neither the Goose or Widgeon has these advantages, in fact the aft mounted access door makes maneuvering around a life raft without getting close to the props awkward, to say the least. Have you ever taxied a plane on the water? It's a different experience!
They had the Walrus which eventually served in this role. What they didn't have was a properly organised Air Sea Rescue organisation.
The British also targeted and shot down German float planes of the Seenotdienst usually He 59s, despite them being clearly marked (white with red crosses) and their crews being registered with ICRC in Geneva. This was on the grounds that they were serving as reconnaissance aircraft for the Luftwaffe, a charge always denied by the Germans and one which has little evidence to support it.