Glider
Major
Only the Boeing website could make claims like that
WW2 Aircraft more successful in secondary role
- Thread starter wuzak
- Start date
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
I think you missed the point. Out of the two squadrons only one even existed in 1940 and it flew Gladiator until the squadron was effectively destroyed in the Norwegian campaign. More due to the Glorious being sunk than air-to air combat. One squadron more of pilots (most new) during the Battle of Britain? and plenty of other squadrons were working up with new pilots that didn't much action in 1940. 2nd squadron doesn't form up until the 2nd half of 1941 so they weren't around to fly anything in 1940 and over 1/2 of 1941 but somehow that is blamed on the Whirlwind?
The Air ministry didn't seem to know what it wanted. It wanted a 20mm cannon armed fighter. But then it didn't seem to know what to do with it. Keep it for anti-tank work?? only works until the the tanks get thicker than 20mm armor. Performance predictions for future aircraft were way off leading to the initial cancellation (the famous 370 mph Beaufighter would replace it).
Wing mounted 20mmm cannon to longer to figure out than planned/hoped for leaving the orphan Whirlwind and Beaufighter the only game in town for 20mm guns for a while.
The Whirlwind is often categorized as a low level aircraft but there is a lot of airspace between sea level and 20,000ft so even if the Whirlwind wasn't that good above 20,000ft I am not sure why that regulates it to being a a sea level aircraft?
And again, because of it's "use up the parts in stock" status it never got some relatively simple fixes that might have improved things.
Mosquito picked up 13-15mph by changing from the ducted saxaphone exhaust system to the multi-stub exhaust.
Intake on the Whirlwind gave trouble. Ducted from the radiator/oil cooler duct in the wing it didn't give the ram a more straight forward intake might have. There may have been some trouble keeping the duct/s air tight also which hurt altitude performance.
Whirlwind couldn't even get propellers with more than 20 degrees of pitch change (would help limit over revving in dives) but the whole British propeller production program was a sorry mess to understate it politely. It was claimed that the Whirlwind would need custom propellers and while it is quite true that it used a smaller shaft and hub than the Merlin the Peregrine engine was about the same power and needed about the same size propeller as the Mercury/Pegasus/Perseus. Of course in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm) the air ministry had decided that many of the aircraft powered by those engines only needed two pitch propellers and not even variable pitch between the limits of moving so there wasn't even a good variable pitch hub in that size range to even put different blades on.
A lot of the problems were self fulfilling prophasis. It is a limited production aircraft so don't fund any improvements and then claim it was right to cancel the aircraft because of problems 1-10 that were known about in the early stages but left unfixed.
Meanwhile the much anticipated replacement (the Typhoon) was augerring into the ground with all too monotonous regularity for the pilots involved.
If the Whirlwind had been properly axed, with no partial reprieve in 1939 I reckon that would have freed up about 25 pilots during late 1940, double that in 1941. The initial Whirlwind testers of 25 squadron included many experienced pilots on Blenheims, but when other plans were made for them the survivors of 263 squadron got the job. The core of these pilots were not new men either, all were operational pilots. Instead of reinforcing Fighter Command's hard pressed Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons they were shuffled off to 13 Group with a few Whirlwinds. When all of these were all grounded in July 1940 with a well known list of potentially fatal problems someone should have said enough is enough and pulled the plug. They didn't and by September they had barely achieved a serviceability rate of 50%. In October when it was suggested that 263 move to 10 Group in order to be closer to the Westland factory, which might expedite the solution of the never ending technical problems, Dowding let Beaverbrook know what he thought of the type.
"I purposely put 262 squadron well out of the way [13 Group] because I know Westlands and I know what a packet of trouble the squadron would be in for. I cannot put them anywhere in the South because I cannot carry any passengers in that part of the world."
Dowding also thought it
"Quite wrong to introduce a fighter whose effective ceiling is 25,000 feet."
He quoted a report (by 263 squadron's CO) in which the fighting qualities of the Whirlwind above 25,000 feet were considered "very poor". The Luftwaffe were consistently arriving at 30,000 feet by this time, a big problem for the Hurricane, never mind the Whirlwind. That's why it's considered a 'low level' aircraft, not forgetting the Peregrine's rated altitude of 13,500 feet.
It was its cannon armament that led to it being co-opted into a ground attack role, a decision taken as early as July 1940 in the face of an expected (by some) German invasion. They might have been handy against tanks on the beaches, but that never happened.
The Whirlwind would have required a smaller diametre propeller with the Merlin because the nacelles were close to the fuselage. The issue of completely redesigning the landing gear to provide space for the Merlin's up draught carburettor has been discussed elsewhere.
Cheers
Steve
"I purposely put 262 squadron well out of the way [13 Group] because I know Westlands and I know what a packet of trouble the squadron would be in for. I cannot put them anywhere in the South because I cannot carry any passengers in that part of the world."
Dowding also thought it
"Quite wrong to introduce a fighter whose effective ceiling is 25,000 feet."
He quoted a report (by 263 squadron's CO) in which the fighting qualities of the Whirlwind above 25,000 feet were considered "very poor". The Luftwaffe were consistently arriving at 30,000 feet by this time, a big problem for the Hurricane, never mind the Whirlwind. That's why it's considered a 'low level' aircraft, not forgetting the Peregrine's rated altitude of 13,500 feet.
It was its cannon armament that led to it being co-opted into a ground attack role, a decision taken as early as July 1940 in the face of an expected (by some) German invasion. They might have been handy against tanks on the beaches, but that never happened.
The Whirlwind would have required a smaller diametre propeller with the Merlin because the nacelles were close to the fuselage. The issue of completely redesigning the landing gear to provide space for the Merlin's up draught carburettor has been discussed elsewhere.
Cheers
Steve
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By the time the first 1000 bomber Cologne raid only 199 Wellingtons were at front line units the raid also had 88 Stirlings 131 Halifaxes 73 Lancasters and 43 Manchesters. There were another 403 Wellingtons supplied from training units. I am not knocking the Wellington, until 1942 the RAF didnt have the numbers, navigational aids or tactics to do the task. Despite being slated for replacement by the Stirling Halifax and Lancaster from 1941 it still remained in service AND production until 1945.
On 1st March 1942 of the 469 night bombers available to Harris 221 were Wellingtons.
Nearly 18 months later,on the Cologne rate of the night 3/4 July 1943 there were still 89 Wellingtons in the 653 strong force. 124 Wellingtons attacked Berlin on the night of 22/23 August 1943! It was a mainstay of the main force squadrons well into 1943.
Cheers
Steve
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Shortround6
Lieutenant General
The particular aircraft used to tow gliders had absolutely nothing to do with most of those questions.
The Hotspur being thought to unsuitable for operations even before very many had been built and the Horsa being towed by a Hector is the stuff of nightmares.
Doesn't matter if the tow plane is a Hector or a Tiger Moth or a Whitley if you are arguing over the title for the guy who "steers" the glider. It doesn't make any difference to the towplane which branch of the service he is from and it makes no difference to either branch of the service what airplane is used to tow the glider.
Simple math helped figure out some of the other problems, if you have a 5000 man brigade than you need 625 Hotspurs at eight men per glider. IF you have one airman flying it and only 7 soldiers you need 715 Hotspurs. That or your Brigade just shrank by 12.5%. Each Glider needs a tow plane and schemes to tow two Hotspurs with one aircraft quickly were put aside (and I doubt that the Hector could tow two at once). The use of Horsa's at 15 men each means 334 Gliders and 334 towplanes.
This could easily be worked out without a single glider flight being made.
Hawker Audax (which predate the Hector) were also used by the Glider training school and later, with no surprise whatsoever, Those oh so valuable Lysanders were used along with Miles Masters.
From wiki so correct if it is wrong:
" On 21 June 1940 the Central Landing Establishment was formed at Ringway airfield near Manchester; although tasked primarily with training parachute troops, it was also directed to investigate using gliders to transport troops into battle.[8][9] It had been decided that the Royal Air Force and the Army would cooperate in forming the airborne establishment, and as such Squadron Leader L.A. Strange and Major J.F. Rock were tasked with gathering potential glider pilots and forming a glider unit; this was achieved by searching for members of the armed forces who had pre-war experience of flying gliders, or were interested in learning to do so.[9] The two officers and their newly formed unit were provided with four obsolete Armstrong Whitworth Whitley bombers and a small number of Tiger Moth and Avro 504 biplanes for towing purposes.[10]"
Now by the end of June 1940 the Lysander had been shown to be almost totally useless in it's intended roll of an Army Cooperation Aircraft. In the fall of 1940 Westlands was cranking out almost 40 Lysanders a month that were no longer wanted/needed in their original role. Shaking few loose to play glider tow shouldn't have been that big a deal by the time more than a 1/2 dozen to dozen Hotspurs existed, First flight the Prototype Hotspur being in Nov 1940 so by the time they built 5-11 more any idea of having to keep large numbers (like all) of Lysanders around as anti-invasion aircraft should have receded into the far background.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Fact is, the B-25H gunship was one of the heaviest armed warplanes in WWII.
Several examples had as many as 12 forward firing .50 cal. MGs, a few even had more - not including the 75mm armed version, too.
This B-25H had 12 forward firing .50 MGs
This B-25J had 14 forward .50 cal. MGs.
That's not a good start for good old WIKI!
The CENTRAL LANDING SCHOOL was established at Ringway in June 1940 after Churchill demanded an airborne force of 5,000 paratroops and a proportionate glider force to be ready by 'spring' 1941.
The War Office and Air Ministry, in conference, for once agreed and knocked a zero off the total to be trained.
The RAF donated a few clapped out Whitleys and the first volunteers were dropped in July.
In October the CENTRAL LANDING ESTABLISHMENT was formed under Group Captain Hervey. My maternal grand father was posted here. It comprised Strange's Parachute Training School, a Technical and Tactical Development Establishment (Wing Commander Mungo Buxton) and a Glider Training Squadron (GTS).
The latter possessed 7 single seater gliders (3 German made!), 1 two seater and no tugs. It was supposed to train 400 'glider coxswains' by the end of 1941.
Despite an intake of trainees late in 1940 precisely ZERO glider pilots were trained at Ringway.
In late 1940 the GTS moved briefly to Newmarket.
New Year 1941 it moved to Haddenham/Thame. Here it comprised 5 Kirby Kites, towed by a Tiger Moth, liberated from the London Gliding Club.
By March the GTS had 12 Tigers, had added a Slingsby Swallow to its glider establishment and acquired an Avro 504 which had towed a Hotspur in tests at Farnborough.
March marked the first solo gliding flight by an Army pilot and the first crash of an Army pilot when Corporal Weston arrived in the Sergeant's Mess (serious faux pas) in a Kite, via the roof. Though training had now commenced there were still no troop carrying gliders and with the exception of the Avro, nothing to tow them.
April 1941 the first Hotspur glider arrived and so did the first Hector, described by one officer as "destined to be the standard tug for the Hotspur".
Intake of more trainees was halted until more Hectors became available. When they did training began seriously with glider pilots (they were now accorded that title) graduating to the Hotspur towed by the Hectors.
Given the low priority accorded glider training, not helped by the general appraisal of German glider operations on Crete the following month as having been a failure, it is lucky that the GTS received any tugs at all. It did get the Hectors, without which it is impossible that sufficient glider pilots could have been trained and developed the expertise required when operations were actually undertaken with glider borne forces.
The first of the Glider Pilot Regiment appeared in March 1942.
As an aside WIKI is correct that in the summer/autumn of 1940 glider pilots were being discretely sought out (the strict standards of the RAF medical exam were even lowered to allow some older civilian glider pilots to be enlisted) but gliding was not seen in Britain as it was in Germany as a step on the road to becoming a 'proper' pilot. Young glider pilots applying to the RAF were advised NOT to take in their gliding log books, to stick to cricket or at worst rugby, when asked about sport in their interviews, and not to mention gliding. It seems having flown unpowered aircraft was perceived as a disadvantage by the RAF at this time.
Cheers
Steve
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Kryten
Senior Airman
A lot of the issues with Whirlwind were simply the lack of development, Dowding had a poor view of Petter and Westland and as is noted above simply shoved them off out of the way, it made sense really as the merlin had to take priority and they could not afford to divert resources to develop the Peregrine, there's no doubt the altitude performance could have been addressed but at what cost?
Whirlwinds flew out of RAF Angle in West Wales for a while, the two engines would have been very welcome to the pilots flying patrols over the Irish sea and Atlantic approaches, for that role they were probably ideal.
I do believe it was a testament to the basic concept that they kept going until 43, that extra engine must have been welcome over the flak batteries of France.
Whirlwinds flew out of RAF Angle in West Wales for a while, the two engines would have been very welcome to the pilots flying patrols over the Irish sea and Atlantic approaches, for that role they were probably ideal.
I do believe it was a testament to the basic concept that they kept going until 43, that extra engine must have been welcome over the flak batteries of France.
- Thread starter
- #71
wuzak
Captain
Not a WW2 aircraft.
I agree with all of that, but it doesn't alter the fact that the Air Ministry chickened out of cancelling the type completely in late (November?) 1939.
Cheers
Steve
Glider
Major
True without a doubt but against German defences they were basically dead weight as they were so infrequently used. Even this claim is a little doubtful as the 'fighter' version of the B17 carried a similar payload and I would back the Me262 as having more firepower. The Humble Beaufighter with 4 x 0.5 and the German nightfighters would also give this claim a run for its money.
Kryten
Senior Airman
Can we surmise that was due to the confusion in the requirements during that period, they knew they needed a cannon armed fighter, and as yet had not quantified the Whirlwind or the Beaufighter, so not placing the eggs in one basket may have been the sensible route, after all look how long it took to develop the Typhoon, the Whirlwinds successor?
Kryten
Senior Airman
Beaufighter flew with 4x 20mm hispano as a NF and in Coastal Command, it also carried either 6x .303 or 4x .50 dependant on model
I think slightly later, after the fall of France, the RAF was glad to have a cannon armed fighter as it envisaged tanks on our beaches and knew that rifle calibre machine guns would be useless against them. Dowding was explicit about this and it's why 263 squadron started practicing attacks on ground targets.
The limited reprieve the Whirlwind received was undoubtedly due to a desire not to waste parts and engines already produced. The Air Ministry also had a long history of hedging its bets on various types, always wanting a second or third string to its bow, and the Whirlwind could carry cannon, even if they were struggling to make them work reliably. This was also a factor.
The Typhoon wasn't just supposed to be the Whirlwind's successor, but also that of the Spitfire (and Hurricane) too. Luckily the Spitfire could successfully carry cannon armament, eventually.
The 'Secret Intelligence Service Flight' at Heston coincidentally expressed interest in the type as a reconnaissance aircraft at around this time, mainly due to its speed and ability to carry a substantial fuel load, a range of 1,400 miles at 300mph was mentioned, ten times the types actual operational radius!
It is entirely understandable that, at the time, this limited reprieve was granted and the 114 Whirlwinds authorised. I still believe it was a mistake and I don't think the Whirlwind was a particularly good aircraft in any of its roles. It was good enough and soldiered on in VERY limited numbers for well over three years...but for what? If it had never been built it would have made no difference to the course of the war and you can't say that about other types that excelled in various roles, secondary or otherwise, but then I do have the benefit of hindsight
Cheers
Steve
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Hi Guys,
There have been a lot of great posts on this thread. It has been a very interesting read.
In all these great posts I have not read anything that would change my original stand in
Post No.26. The Merlin powered Mustang took the P-51 in a completely different direction
in which, during WW2 it was unequalled if all factors are considered.
There were faster, faster climbing, more maneuverable, more rugged, etc... but none
of these affected the war effort as the P-51B, C & D/K.
And that is how I still see that, Jeff
There have been a lot of great posts on this thread. It has been a very interesting read.
In all these great posts I have not read anything that would change my original stand in
Post No.26. The Merlin powered Mustang took the P-51 in a completely different direction
in which, during WW2 it was unequalled if all factors are considered.
There were faster, faster climbing, more maneuverable, more rugged, etc... but none
of these affected the war effort as the P-51B, C & D/K.
And that is how I still see that, Jeff
No doubt about the success of the P-51, but I would argue that what it achieved was not in a secondary role. It was always designed as an air superiority fighter, it was supposed to be an improvement on the P-40 in which the British initially expressed an interest. The Merlin engine simply greatly increased that capability.
The early version of the aircraft was consigned by the British to the relatively new Army Cooperation Command because it did not live up to expectations. It was not designed as a fighter-bomber or ground attack aircraft.
Eventually it was a fighter that excelled as a fighter, albeit an escort fighter, a role unimagined when it was designed. To make a fighter an escort fighter in NW Europe all that was required was sufficient range, otherwise it is the aircraft's original capability as a fighter that is important. Other aircraft, like the P-47 or Typhoon, were fighters that excelled as fighter-bombers, a truly secondary role, requiring quite different and unintended qualities.
Cheers
Steve
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The B-25 gunships were used heavily in the Italian campaign and throughout the south and eastern European theater especially against railroad, transportation and some light naval targets. Because of their range, they were used in favor of the A-20 and A-26 ground attack units until more airfields allowed better access.
In the Pacific, the B-25 gunships were the terror of the Japanese navy and accounted for many troop transports being lost in addition to other naval assets. The gunships were also used against Japanese held targets like troop concentrations, airfields, docks, buildings and similar targets.
Do not mistake the B-25 gunship as a "fighter", it was not, it was never intended to be and was never used in that capacity. It's mission was ground attack and performed that role with incredible success.
The YB-40 was never intended to be a "fighter" either, it was intended to be a heavily armed escort to ward off enemy interceptors that were trying to attack the bomber formation. While it seemed like a valid concept, it's weight from all of the additional turrets and MGs, plus tremendous stores of ammunition, made it impossible to keep up with the regular B-17s after they had dropped their bombload.
And while the Me262's four Mk108 30mm are certainly deadly, you simply cannot compare that to 10, 12 or 14 .50 cal. MGs all concentrated on a target.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Stona, I guess we are going to disagree here. North American was approached by the
UK to build P-40s. An air superiority fighter? Maybe under 15,000 ft. it would qualify
as a contender, and the UK knew that. But at 20,000 - 40,000 ft., no way the UK
expected that out of the NA replacement fighter. And if that ability from the Merlin
Mustang doesn't qualify it for a secondary roll, I don't know what does.
UK to build P-40s. An air superiority fighter? Maybe under 15,000 ft. it would qualify
as a contender, and the UK knew that. But at 20,000 - 40,000 ft., no way the UK
expected that out of the NA replacement fighter. And if that ability from the Merlin
Mustang doesn't qualify it for a secondary roll, I don't know what does.
