WW2 Aircraft more successful in secondary role

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Yeah, that kinda ruins it a bit. That needs to be fixed before it can do anything, let alone become a good fighter. You can't say that an aircraft that suffers major structural failure in flight is 'good' at what it does, really. Yes, it was a worthy design, but it took some convincing of the Air Ministry to not cancel the Typhoon as a result of its technical difficulties by the likes of Roland Beamont, who saw some good in it. Interestingly, the Bf 109F suffered tailplanes breaking off initially, which required stiffening of the internal structure.

The Bf 109 F suffered a similar problem as you say, but the RLM never contemplated cancelling it. It all depends on the options available and the capability to introduce new types.

I should be noted that the Typhoon failures at the transport joint, unlike the failures of the 'Friedrich' were not due to an inherent structural weakness but to a rather complicated series of factors leading to fatigue failures. The cure involved strengthening the elevator mass balance mounting bracket, introducing different bearings to the elevator circuit, fitting an 8lb elevator mass balance and a 16lb control column inertia weight, changing the geared rudder balance tab to an ordinary adjustable trim tab and removing the damping cords on the rudder trailing edge. It was NOT a case of riveting on a few strengthening strips as for the Messerschmitt.
No aircraft suffered a tail breakage after the reinforcement of the elevator balance mounting bracket, even before the other modifications were introduced.
All the changes were incorporated in all Typhoons starting with the MN series, delivered to the RAF from late 1943, and of course retro fitted to earlier aircraft.
It was Beamont, while at Hawkers, who dived the modified aircraft at 500mph, making 'harsh' recoveries 'to see if the tail came off.' It didn't and 61/2 g turns were made at 5,000ft with no tendency to tighten up, showing another issue was also cured.


Once again the tendency to underestimate the complexity and difficulties associated with the development of these high performance aircraft rears its head! It took more than a year to fully understand and fix the fatigue problem with the Typhoon's empennage, precisely because there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the structure. A quick, interim fix, in the form of the strengthened bracket did work, but a regular inspection schedule had to be introduced with it.
The Typhoon was, and proved later in its fighter bomber role, one of the strongest and most rugged of any of the fighters deployed by the RAF.

It was just one of many development problems that beset the Typhoon, quite aside from the issues with the engine, and this was not entirely due to Hawkers. It was rushed to delivery in September 1941 with a preliminary Service Clearance and no standardisation. The programme was not initially well managed by any of the bodies involved, largely due to the Focke-Wulf panic (and look at the shambles around the introduction of that aircraft) but the Air Ministry/RAF did get it under control, and quickly, in early 1942, just in time for the new problem with structural failure to arise.

At the conference to discuss the future of the Typhoon held in January 1943 Beamont's voice was just about the only one speaking up for the type. The Typhoon was seen by the RAF as a low level defensive interceptor and this was reflected in the rebuff Beamont had received when he attempted to have his Typhoons of No. 609 Squadron included on offensive sweeps. It was on Beamont's initiative, and an authorisation from AVM Saunders at 11 Group, that the Typhoons undertook independent offensive operations from Manston. It was the data from this independent operational trial that enabled Beamont to argue for the low level offensive role for the Typhoon, which prevented the aircraft being cancelled or becoming something like the Whirlwind, in early 1943. The Typhoon had proved itself as a capable low level offensive aircraft, and unintended and secondary role at which it was as good if not better than any other Allied aircraft operating in NW Europe.

Cheers

Steve
 
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It was Beamont, while at Hawkers, who dived the modified aircraft at 500mph, making 'harsh' recoveries 'to see if the tail came off.' It didn't and 61/2 g turns were made at 5,000ft with no tendency to tighten up, showing another issue was also cured.

That had to take balls of steel knowing that if the fix didnt work he was going to be a smoking hole in the ground. I dont think he would be able to bail out of a tailess Typhoon spinning down at gods knows what speed and G force.
 
First of all if the consensus is that all Mustangs, Allison or Merlin, were just generally considered
fighters. Then I will digress and agree. I would simply like to point out that GrauGeist referenced to
the Ju87's primary role: Dive Bomber. secondary role: ground attack (tank buster).
Dive bombing over terrain is ground attack. So the Ju87's primary and secondary role are ground
attack and should be lumped in the same category? No, I don't think so. I also don't think the
Allison and Merlin Mustangs should be lumped into the same category either.

The first Mustangs were put into service as low-altitude attack & close-support fighters: primary role.
They were purchased to be Army co-op and low altitude air superiority fighters. Then the Allison
powered P-51A came along with its new 9,6:1 supercharger gears compared to the older 8.8:1.
I believe this Mustang became the best Allison for the primary role and it was able to expand to the
medium level air superiority role much better than its predecessors.

Then the Merlin comes along, the game changes. The Mustang has now entered into its secondary
role
: High-Altitude Escort Fighter. A role that it exceeded at and many consider it the best of the best
at.

Now, if we are going to lump all fighters into the same category (role), how are we going to explain
the great success of the Yak-3 as low and medium level air superiority fighter and the P-47M as a
very long distance high altitude escort fighter and say they are awesome in their primary roles?
Which are considered the same...?
Try switching the two around. The Russians didn't even think the P-47 was a decent low-altitude
fighter and there is no way the Yak-3 is going to fly/fight with the best a thousand miles from
home base at 30,000 ft.

Just a little food for thought.:)

Oh, and just one other thing. When the 283 was replaced by the 502 I would think you went
from medium ranged passenger car to short range wild ride. Well, anyway a passenger (vehicle)
'staying politically correct' in my opinion is my wife's mini-van. We can put 6 people in that sucker
and have room for a case of beer at each station plus room for two good size kegs in the way back.
All the camping, hunting and fishing supplies are up on top. Now that is what I call a passenger
vehicle:
pimary role.
Oh yeah, take out the back four captain's chairs and a queen size mattress fits right in: Secondary
role,
you figure it out.:shock::rolleyes:

God bless, Jeff
 
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HUGE difference between a dedicated dive bomber and a tank buster. The Stuka's role as a dive bomber was to dive at extreme angles in order to deliver a bomb as accurately on target as possible.
Once the cannon were fitted to the late D and then G series, it no longer performed dive bombing, instead approaching it's targets in a shallow dive (or level as the target dictates) and then fires it's cannon.
Two entirely different mission profiles.

If we want to get technical - the IJN Musashi performed well in it's primary role of Battleship, but excelled in it's secondary role as artificial reef...
 
They were purchased to be Army co-op and low altitude air superiority fighters.

I dont think the British Purchasing Commision bought them as Army Co-op and low altitude superiority fighters. Thats how the Allison engined Mustang I and II were used by the RAF but that wasnt the intention when purchased they were supposed to be a better P40. In 1940 the P40 wasnt anything other than a fighter no better or worse than a whole raft of Fighters like the 109E, Hurricane MkI and De520. The low altitude bit came in 41/42 when Daimler Benz, RR and others had produced engines that could operate at 30,000ft.
 
Good info Steve; I was aware the RLM had not considered cancelling the Bf 109F, I mentioned it because it also suffered structural failure, proving that even with some of the good ones, the designers didn't always get it right.
 
Here's a thought, could you argue that the Mustang when it went into service with the RAF in the army cooperation role was in fact in a secondary role that it wasn't purchased for, and it wasn't until it got the Merlin engine that it was able to fulfill it's primary role?
 
Here's a thought, could you argue that the Mustang when it went into service with the RAF in the army cooperation role was in fact in a secondary role that it wasn't purchased for, and it wasn't until it got the Merlin engine that it was able to fulfill it's primary role?

Exactly though it could be said that long range escort fighter was actually its third role. In 1940 no one had thought of that role for a single engine fighter.
 
Here's a thought, could you argue that the Mustang when it went into service with the RAF in the army cooperation role was in fact in a secondary role that it wasn't purchased for, and it wasn't until it got the Merlin engine that it was able to fulfill it's primary role?

I mentioned this above, slightly tongue in cheek, when I wrote
"If it did well in a secondary role that would be as an Army Cooperation aircraft, before the Merlin was fitted."
The problem is that it didn't really excel as an Army cooperation or ground attack aircraft, it certainly didn't do better in this secondary role than in its primary role. It excelled as a fighter at a later date, after the addition of an engine which allowed it to compete with its contemporaries, in its originally intended, primary, role.
Cheers
Steve
 
OK Steve, I'll go with that. It sounds good to me.:thumbright:

I wasn't being entirely serious !
I think that the P-51 evolved into a fabulous aircraft. The 'best fighter of the war' argument is slightly pointless given the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various contenders, but any list of contenders would have to include it.
The P-51 would get my vote, to use a cricketing analogy, as the best all rounder. It wasn't a batsman who could bowl a bit, or a bowler who could bat a bit, it could genuinely do both as well as being a decent fielder :)
Cheers
Steve
 
Steve,
I have done some more research on the subject. It appears that the UK purchasing commission
sent to the US in hopes of finding a long-range fighter aircraft supplier for its bomber escort
missions had approached Curtiss with a request for 300 P-40 aircraft was turned down by
Curtiss-Wright Corporation. So they approach North American Aviation.

The UK purchasing commission gave North American Aviation the OK to build a fighter
with the following two provisions; 1. They were to use the Allison V-12 with a one-stage
supercharger suitable for low-altitude operation. A ground support fighter for the Army.
2. North American had to produce the first prototype within 120 days.

So, I know you're tired of hearing it, the NA-73 entered service under the designation
Low-altitude attack and close-support fighter.

Uh;), so I am just going to have to go back to my original stance.

All the best, cheers, Jeff:razz:
 
It just dawned on me, what secondary designation do I give my wife's mini van with
all the four rear chairs out and a queen size mattress added? I mean in a PG-13 sort
of way so that we can keep this a family friendly site.:):rolleyes:
 
Mmmm. Kendelberger just described it as an "advanced fighter", which it certainly was for North American.
Didn't it originally use the same engine as the P-40 which the British were originally interested in?
It was ordered as an improvement on the P-40, not a replacement for the Spitfire.
Cheers
Steve
 
The P40, which the Mustang was supposed to improve upon, was just a fighter. No one in the Western Desert called it a low level fighter and the Mustang wasn't either. The P 40 most definitely served as an air superiority fighter there and in other theatres.
Cheers
Steve
 
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