WW2: Germany with no DB-601

[Tante Ju]

If the DB series engines are not available I would guess they would just pick the Jumo 211/213 line and would be at about the same place...

These were directly competing engines from two different manufacturers, and the rationale behind using them both at the same time (instead of concentrating on just one) was probably to lessen the risk that if one hits development problems, there would always another to fall back... in fact when the demand for DB engines before the war was so high, that supply did not meet demand, the He 111H switched from DB engines (P series) to Jumo engines (H series) without particular trouble. At least I do not know of any..

I would also risk saying that mid war Jumos were better than DBs. Quite reliable and good power. Jumo helped DB to fix its problems with the 605 AFAIK.

 

[tomo pauk]

The interesting feature of the Jumos is the annular radiator (in most of the cases), and that should save somewhat on airplane's drag, compared with radiators from historical Bf-109s/110s?

 

[fastmongrel]

Is this necessary?

What are you expecting with such a post?

If we go in all posts/threads to politics, we must simply didn't discuss! Every normal person knows that the nazi regime was evil und a very wrong and dis gusting system.
But I thought we are also here in this forum to discuss for example technology or advanced military doctrine and so on.........

If we reduce all to politics every discussion is very useless!

It was a response to another post and has about as much to do with politics and Nazis as Aliens and UFOs have to do with the current world financial crisis.

 

[JtD]

Well, for the record, I had a laugh.

 

[davebender]

Some of these early model Me-110s were powered by Jumo 210. Were they upgraded to Jumo 211 when that engine replaced Jumo 210 on production lines? If so how did they perform with Jumo engines?

 

[Shortround6]

I believe they were used at training schools or conversion units. Or went there when the DB powered production ones started showing up. Total production of the Jumo 210 version wasn't very high (45 planes ?) so a re-engine program wasn't going to change the number of front line planes much.

 

[davebender]

Total production of the Jumo 210 version wasn't very high (45 planes ?) so a re-engine program wasn't going to change the number of front line planes much.

I agree. However we could compare Jumo 211 performance vs Me-110C with DB601 engine.

 

[stona]

The RLM ordered Bf 110 V3 with the DB 600 engine in August 1935. When the engine failed to materialise the Jumo 210 was a stop gap that ended up stopping a bigger gap than anticipated. The A series, which ended up indistinguishable from the B, even in RLM production plans, nearly got the carburetted Jumo 210 B rather than the fuel injected G.

The DB 601 powered Bf 110 C had a top speed 50 kph faster than the Jumo powered version and cruised just over 30 kph faster, both at 3,900 metres.

I've never seen any evidence that a Jumo 211 powered version was tested.

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Jumo 210 production ended during 1938. Replaced by Jumo 211.

DB601 engines must have arrived just in the nick of time to avoid Me-110s powered by Jumo 211 engines. Even if it didn't happen there must have been plans for a Jumo 211 powered Me-110 in case DB601 production was a few months slower then historical. I suspect there were also contingency plans for Jumo 211 powered Me-109.

 

[Shortround6]

For some reason the Jumo 210 was the fall back engine for the DB 600-601. The Jumo 210 powered 109s were coming of the production lines until the fall of 1938. Production Bombers with Jumo 211s had being built since the Spring of 1938(in fact bombers with Jumo 211s had been deployed to Spain in the spring of 1938).
Perhaps it had something to do with the cooling system. The unpressurized system on the Jumo 211 may have required larger radiators and larger openings for more drag? designing an interim installation may have been more they wanted to invest in?

There seem to NO records of prototypes with Jumo 211s and perhaps no drawings? Plans, if any, may have been pretty sketchy.

 

[stona]

The production of Bf 110 Bs was intentionally kept low as the RLM waited for the DB 601. Only 86 were built from April '38 to February '39. These aircraft were essentially used for training purposes.
Once the DB 601 arrived production got underway (eventually) at four companies and between October '39 and July '40 359 Bf 109 C-2s, and a small number of a variety of variants, were built.
The RLM's procurement plan No. 10 of December 1938, 1,222 were to be produced by March 1941.
It is clear that the RLM was waiting for production of the Daimler Benz engines which were originally intended for this aircraft. This may explain why no attempt was ever made to fit the Jumo 211, which was already ear marked for other aircraft.

I'd just like to flog one particular old horse again here as I came across an interesting memo whilst looking for production numbers.
It IS Bf 110. I see constant arguments that Me appears in German documents (it does) and allied reports (it does) but this doesn't make it correct. The compromise that both were used so both are okay is not technically correct. In 1935 you could have tried to argue this with the RLM rather than me. A memo from Lucht's office to the main office of 8th November 1935.

"Re: correspondence and memos from the Bayerische Flugzeugwerk.
Effective 6th November 1935 it is requested that all correspondence and messages by the Bayerische Flugzeugwerk which refer to the outdated designation of "Me" (e.g Me 110) instead of "BF" (e.g. BF 110) for their aircraft types are not to be accepted and should be returned to the Bayerische Flugzeugwerk with the relevant explanation.This measure is necessary in order to ensure consistency within the Air Ministry for type designations of aircraft manufactured by the Bayerische Flugzeugwerk.
It is requested that such memorandums and correspondence not be put in circulation beforehand, and if necessary have the filing rooms within the relevant departments return the materials without logging them."

My italics. Make sure you write BF in your complaint or they might just send it straight back to you

Cheers

Steve

 

[wuzak]

If the DB series engines are not available I would guess they would just pick the Jumo 211/213 line and would be at about the same place...

These were directly competing engines from two different manufacturers, and the rationale behind using them both at the same time (instead of concentrating on just one) was probably to lessen the risk that if one hits development problems, there would always another to fall back... in fact when the demand for DB engines before the war was so high, that supply did not meet demand, the He 111H switched from DB engines (P series) to Jumo engines (H series) without particular trouble. At least I do not know of any..

I would also risk saying that mid war Jumos were better than DBs. Quite reliable and good power. Jumo helped DB to fix its problems with the 605 AFAIK.

That is the major difference between this scenario and the no Merlin/V-1710 scenarios. The Germans had available, at the same time, a directly comparable engine to the DB 601.

The British did not have a comparable engine to the Merlin, and the Americans didn't have a comparable engine to the V-1710.

 

[tomo pauk]

A question - were the Jumo 211 and/or DB 601E/605A ever tested with C3 fuel?

 

[wiking85]

A question - were the Jumo 211 and/or DB 601E/605A ever tested with C3 fuel?

The DB601N was.

 

[wiking85]

A question - were the Jumo 211 and/or DB 601E/605A ever tested with C3 fuel?

The DB601N was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_601

DB601N
Up to 1,175 PS (864 kW) at sea-level and at 4.9 km altitude with 2,600 rpm, C3 fuel
Up to 1,270 PS (934 kW) at 2.1 km altitude with 2,600 rpm

 

[JtD]

The DB 601N ran on C3 fuel, but it's not an E. The DB605AM was essentially a DB605A run with C3. Also with MW50 injection, but that's outside the question. If you don't want to take the AM as an A, you can still bet the A was tested with C3 in course of development of the later engines.

Don't know about the Jumo.

 

[Denniss]

The C3 usage in the 605AM was not to increase power but to increse stability/prevent damage in case MW-50 ran out. Later reverted back to B4 after tests in unit showed no real need for C3.

 

[Tante Ju]

A question - were the Jumo 211 and/or DB 601E/605A ever tested with C3 fuel?

AFAIK there was a second like of DB 605A-C series (87), the 605D-F (100), which was developed (to what extent until 1944?) from 1942 onwards. There was some marginal improvement im power (1550 vs 1475) and altitude performance. The later D series engines of k4/g10 evolved from these - I think.

The 605A of course could run on C-3 but without improvement, since boost etc. would be untouched.

 

[tomo pauk]

Why do you think that boost would be untouched with 605A running on C3 fuel?

 

[JtD]

Imho there are only two options (outside of water injection co): run it with B4 on unchanged boost, or run it with C3 and increase boost or compression. You just don't use higher quality fuel then necessary. My understanding is that with C3 fuel, the increased boost and compression of the later engines as used with WEP could be run without immediate engine damage, maybe not for 10 minutes like with MW50, but still possible. So if the premise is the DB605A was running on C3, you would get a short time power output similar to historical MW50 operation with C3 use alone. In case of the A engine, a power boost in the range of 250-300hp.