WW2: Germany with no DB-601

[swampyankee]

We've taken the Merlin away from the British and the Allison V-1710 away from the US. Now, it's time to take the DB-600 away from the Germans. If Wikipedia's to be believed, the DB-601, DB-603, and DB-605 were DB-600 derivatives, so it loses those, too. In same way, if the US doesn't have the V-1710, it doesn't have the W-3420.

 

[tomo pauk]

Jumo 211 family can fit the needs decently; since the DB family of engines is not around more resources go to later derivatives, like -N, -P -R.
The Jumo 213 is earlier sorted out, too?

 

[wiking85]

Jumo 211 family can fit the needs decently; since the DB family of engines is not around more resources go to later derivatives, like -N, -P -R.
The Jumo 213 is earlier sorted out, too?

Yeah, the DB engineers end up at Jumo and help to work out the issues the Jumo series had with their experience. Radial engines are also a major option sooner.
The Jumo route is quite interesting, as it simplifies production quite a bit, though with a corresponding reduction in high burst performance that the DBs gave.

What are the circumstances of the DB loss though? The contract for the 601 was signed in 1933, so without that Jumo gets the 211 going in 1935. There is going to be a massive investment in boosting the Jumos and their derivatives to keep up with the Allied engines, so instead of spreading engineering assets around with the DB projects, Jumo gets everything, including the resources for Jumo 222 (as we won't have the DB604). The 213 gets major priority and access to what would have been the historical DB601, 603, and 605 engineers, so its not inconceivable that its ready by 1942 in a mature form. Then its just a matter of building them. This is very good for the FW190D and TA152 projects, with interesting potential for the other aircraft that took the DB603 historically.

 

[alejandro_]

I have been comparing the Bf 109 layout with the Yak-1 and Spitfire, models that received a bubble canopy. There are differences that could be important when trimming down the fuselage. The Spitfire fuel tanks were located in front of the pilot, Yakovlev's in the wings. Maybe this made it easier.

 

[davebender]

I agree.

Jumo 211 will get features DB601 had historically which were so well like by fighter aircraft designers. Might even be two engine variants.
.....Bomber engine. Same as historical.
.....Fighter engine. Supercharger, hydraulic supercharger coupling and pressurized cooling system similar to historical DB601.

Genshagen V12 engine factory would produce 220 Jumo 211s (fighter variant) per month rather then DB601 engines. This would give Junkers a total of four V12 factories (pre-war) rather then the historical three.


If RLM adopts this strategy they will be placing all V12 engine eggs in a single basket. IMO that's risky. If Jumo 211 engine doesn't pan out most German aircraft production will grind to a halt.

 

[JtD]

I suppose they'd lose the war.

 

[swampyankee]

Yeah, the DB engineers end up at Jumo and help to work out the issues the Jumo series had with their experience. Radial engines are also a major option sooner.
The Jumo route is quite interesting, as it simplifies production quite a bit, though with a corresponding reduction in high burst performance that the DBs gave.

What are the circumstances of the DB loss though?

The same as those for the loss of the Merlin and the loss of the V-1710: it's being posited for the purpose of discussion.

 

[wiking85]

The same as those for the loss of the Merlin and the loss of the V-1710: it's being posited for the purpose of discussion.

It makes a difference under what circumstances it is not available; was this a choice by the RLM or does it magically disappear with everyone forgetting how to make it?

 

[GregP]

This is the same as the other rather tedious premises.

No DB 601 means an alternate engine would have been developed and NOBODY knows what it might have been. The Jumo might have been one or another engine might have been manufactured and built in numbers.

The very premise is strange ... there WAS a DB 601. It WAS the premier German engine. If you disallow what really happened, how can you possibly know what would have transpired? Maybe they would have developed a turboprop or just surrendered.

Ludicrous along with the others. We HAD these engines. There is no dispute about it. They all run great.

I wish the Allison had the DB supercharger.

 

[tomo pauk]

The same as those for the loss of the Merlin and the loss of the V-1710: it's being posited for the purpose of discussion.

What the man said. We are here to discuss, hopefuly in a friendly and constructive manner. If some find that tedious, guess that's entirely heri problem.

 

[cherry blossom]

This is actually quite plausible. We know that it was possible with small changes to produce a DB 601 clone that suffered frequent crankshaft bearing failures because the Japanese did that with the Kawasaki Ha-40. We know that the lubrication system of the Jumo 211 was better designed than that of the DB 600 family. We just need Daimler-Benz to produce poor quality crankshaft pins like Kawasaki and for the RLM to conclude as soon as the Jumo 211 is running that the design of the DB 600 family is fundamentally flawed. This may have been the actual reason that the funding of the DB 603 was stopped between 1937 and 1940 as the RLM may have believed that the Jumo 213 had more potential.

 

[Shortround6]

I wish the Allison had the DB supercharger.

Which DB supercharger?
The one on the DB 601A.
The one on the DB 601E/605A
The one on the DB 605 AM.

each is different.

 

[davebender]

I agree.

DB management and RLM did not get along well during mid to late 1930s. Consequently Genshagen engine plant (for DB601) was cut from RM 50 million to RM 20 million and DB603 engine funding was cut entirely. Make the dispute slightly worse and DB601 engine program gets the axe along with DB603 program. A bad deal for German aircraft designers but government bureaucrats are concerned with more pressing matters such as increasing their own political power.

 

[JtD]

Which DB supercharger?
The one on the DB 601A.
The one on the DB 601E/605A
The one on the DB 605 AM.

each is different.

To my knowledge, the 605AM and 605A used the same one. Difference was the water-methanol injection, hence the M. The AS engines used the DB 603 supercharger for better high altitude performance.

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you for the correction.

 

[fastmongrel]

I suppose they'd lose the war.

Impossible awesome Nazi tech will always win.

 

[davebender]

That depends on when Jumo 211 development hits a technical road block.

Decision to build Genshagen engine factory was made during 1935 so that's when DB601 program would need to be cancelled. Presumably DB603 program would never exist as it was derived from DB601 program.

Junkers would have 1935 to 1939 to get Jumo 211 engine program in order. However if there were no other V12 option I suspect RLM would demand results (i.e. promising prototypes) NLT 1937. When Junkers fails to meet the deadline there would be a crash program (no resources spared) to find an alternate V12 engine. Alternate V12 might simply be resurrection of the cancelled DB601 program. Just as RLM historically resurrected canceled DB603 program during 1940.



Mid war technical snag.
Let's pick 1941. 1,340hp Jumo 211F engine works but engine has little further development potential.

1,340hp is adequate until mid 1943 so Germany has some time.
Fw-190A and BMW801 engine might be the big winner. Production might be increased and it fills the entire single engine fighter aircraft requirement during the final two years of WWII.

 

[wiking85]

That depends on when Jumo 211 development hits a technical road block.

Decision to build Genshagen engine factory was made during 1935 so that's when DB601 program would need to be cancelled. Presumably DB603 program would never exist as it was derived from DB601 program.

Junkers would have 1935 to 1939 to get Jumo 211 engine program in order. However if there were no other V12 option I suspect RLM would demand results (i.e. promising prototypes) NLT 1937. When Junkers fails to meet the deadline there would be a crash program (no resources spared) to find an alternate V12 engine. Alternate V12 might simply be resurrection of the cancelled DB601 program. Just as RLM historically resurrected canceled DB603 program during 1940.



Mid war technical snag.
Let's pick 1941. 1,340hp Jumo 211F engine works but engine has little further development potential.

1,340hp is adequate until mid 1943 so Germany has some time.
Fw-190A and BMW801 engine might be the big winner. Production might be increased and it fills the entire single engine fighter aircraft requirement during the final two years of WWII.

AFAIK the Jumo 213 was a development of the Jumo 211, rather like the DB605 was to the DB601. There was no Jumo equivalent of the DB603, which was a larger displacement version of the DB601. So perhaps might we see a Jumo 311 41.5L displacement engine to fill the gap left by no DB603? It wouldn't have the same cooling issues of the historical DB603 thanks to Jumo being able to better design their cooling systems.

As to the 211 itself, what about the historical developments past the F series?
From wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211

A major upgrade was started in 1940 in order to better compete with the 601, following in its footsteps with a pressurized cooling system. The resulting 211E proved to be able to run at much higher power settings without overheating, so it was quickly followed by the 211F which included a strengthened crankshaft and a more efficient supercharger. Running at 2,600 RPM the 211F delivered 1,340 PS and the 211J (a 211F with intercooler) delivered 1,420 PS. Further improvements to this basic line led to the 1,450 PS 211N and 1,500 PS 211P in 1943, they were equivalent to the 211F/J but with slight boost increases and running at up to 2,700 rpm. Continued development of the 211 line evolved into the 213.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_213

When the Jumo 211 entered production in the late 1930s it used an unpressurized liquid cooling system based on an "open cycle". Water was pumped through the engine to keep it cool, but the system as a whole operated only at ambient atmospheric pressure, or only slightly greater. Since the boiling point of water is affected by pressure, this meant that as the aircraft climbed the temperature of the cooling water had to be kept quite low to avoid boiling, which in turn meant that the water removed little heat from the engine before flowing into the radiator to cool it.

In contrast, the 1940 Daimler-Benz DB 601E used a pressurized system that ran at the same pressure at all altitudes, even raising the boiling point slightly to about 110°C. This allowed it to use considerably less water for the same amount of cooling power, and it retained this power at all altitudes. Although otherwise similar to the Jumo 210 in most respects, the 601 was smaller and lighter than the 211, and could be run at higher power settings at higher altitudes, making it popular in fighter designs. The 211 was relegated to "secondary" roles in bombers and transports.

Junkers was not happy with this state of affairs, and started their own efforts to produce a pressurized cooling system as early as 1938. Experiments on the 211 proved so successful that it became clear that not only could the engine be built smaller, but could be run at higher power settings without overheating. Additional changes to strengthen the crankshaft and add a fully shrouded supercharger for increased boost resulted in the Jumo 211F model, which delivered 1,340 PS (1,322 hp, 986 kW) at 2,600 RPM, up from 1000 PS at 2,200 RPM in the first version 211A.

But this was only the beginning. After redesigning the engine block to a smaller external size to suit the increased cooling power - while keeping the same 150 mm x 165 mm bore/stroke figures, maintaining the 35 liter displacement of the Jumo 211 series - and then further increasing boost settings on the supercharger, the resulting 213A model was able to deliver 1,750 PS (metric hp) at 3,250 RPM. This made it considerably more powerful than the corresponding DB 601E which provided 1,350 PS, and about the same power as the much larger DB 603. Junkers decided to go after the 603's market, and placed the 213's mounting points and fluid connections in the same locations as the 603, allowing it to be "dropped in" as a replacement, with the exception of the Jumo's standard starboard-side supercharger intake (Daimler-Benz inverted V12 engines always had the supercharger intakes on the port side).

 

[swampyankee]

Impossible awesome Nazi tech will always win.

Hmm...I guess that's why I'm typing this in German and why my Jewish in-laws are all dead.

 

[DonL]

Impossible awesome Nazi tech will always win.

Is this necessary?

What are you expecting with such a post?

If we go in all posts/threads to politics, we must simply didn't discuss! Every normal person knows that the nazi regime was evil und a very wrong and dis gusting system.
But I thought we are also here in this forum to discuss for example technology or advanced military doctrine and so on.........

If we reduce all to politics every discussion is very useless!