WW2: Germany with no DB-601

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by swampyankee, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. swampyankee

    swampyankee Active Member

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    #1 swampyankee, Sep 6, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
    We've taken the Merlin away from the British and the Allison V-1710 away from the US. Now, it's time to take the DB-600 away from the Germans. If Wikipedia's to be believed, the DB-601, DB-603, and DB-605 were DB-600 derivatives, so it loses those, too. In same way, if the US doesn't have the V-1710, it doesn't have the W-3420.
     
  2. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Jumo 211 family can fit the needs decently; since the DB family of engines is not around more resources go to later derivatives, like -N, -P -R.
    The Jumo 213 is earlier sorted out, too?
     
  3. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the DB engineers end up at Jumo and help to work out the issues the Jumo series had with their experience. Radial engines are also a major option sooner.
    The Jumo route is quite interesting, as it simplifies production quite a bit, though with a corresponding reduction in high burst performance that the DBs gave.

    What are the circumstances of the DB loss though? The contract for the 601 was signed in 1933, so without that Jumo gets the 211 going in 1935. There is going to be a massive investment in boosting the Jumos and their derivatives to keep up with the Allied engines, so instead of spreading engineering assets around with the DB projects, Jumo gets everything, including the resources for Jumo 222 (as we won't have the DB604). The 213 gets major priority and access to what would have been the historical DB601, 603, and 605 engineers, so its not inconceivable that its ready by 1942 in a mature form. Then its just a matter of building them. This is very good for the FW190D and TA152 projects, with interesting potential for the other aircraft that took the DB603 historically.
     
  4. alejandro_

    alejandro_ Member

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    I have been comparing the Bf 109 layout with the Yak-1 and Spitfire, models that received a bubble canopy. There are differences that could be important when trimming down the fuselage. The Spitfire fuel tanks were located in front of the pilot, Yakovlev's in the wings. Maybe this made it easier.
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    Jumo 211 will get features DB601 had historically which were so well like by fighter aircraft designers. Might even be two engine variants.
    .....Bomber engine. Same as historical.
    .....Fighter engine. Supercharger, hydraulic supercharger coupling and pressurized cooling system similar to historical DB601.

    Genshagen V12 engine factory would produce 220 Jumo 211s (fighter variant) per month rather then DB601 engines. This would give Junkers a total of four V12 factories (pre-war) rather then the historical three.


    If RLM adopts this strategy they will be placing all V12 engine eggs in a single basket. IMO that's risky. If Jumo 211 engine doesn't pan out most German aircraft production will grind to a halt.
     
  6. JtD

    JtD Member

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    I suppose they'd lose the war.
     
  7. swampyankee

    swampyankee Active Member

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    The same as those for the loss of the Merlin and the loss of the V-1710: it's being posited for the purpose of discussion.
     
  8. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    It makes a difference under what circumstances it is not available; was this a choice by the RLM or does it magically disappear with everyone forgetting how to make it?
     
  9. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #9 GregP, Sep 7, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
    This is the same as the other rather tedious premises.

    No DB 601 means an alternate engine would have been developed and NOBODY knows what it might have been. The Jumo might have been one or another engine might have been manufactured and built in numbers.

    The very premise is strange ... there WAS a DB 601. It WAS the premier German engine. If you disallow what really happened, how can you possibly know what would have transpired? Maybe they would have developed a turboprop or just surrendered.

    Ludicrous along with the others. We HAD these engines. There is no dispute about it. They all run great.

    I wish the Allison had the DB supercharger.
     
  10. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    What the man said. We are here to discuss, hopefuly in a friendly and constructive manner. If some find that tedious, guess that's entirely heri problem.
     
  11. cherry blossom

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    This is actually quite plausible. We know that it was possible with small changes to produce a DB 601 clone that suffered frequent crankshaft bearing failures because the Japanese did that with the Kawasaki Ha-40. We know that the lubrication system of the Jumo 211 was better designed than that of the DB 600 family. We just need Daimler-Benz to produce poor quality crankshaft pins like Kawasaki and for the RLM to conclude as soon as the Jumo 211 is running that the design of the DB 600 family is fundamentally flawed. This may have been the actual reason that the funding of the DB 603 was stopped between 1937 and 1940 as the RLM may have believed that the Jumo 213 had more potential.
     
  12. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Which DB supercharger?
    The one on the DB 601A.
    The one on the DB 601E/605A
    The one on the DB 605 AM.

    each is different.
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    DB management and RLM did not get along well during mid to late 1930s. Consequently Genshagen engine plant (for DB601) was cut from RM 50 million to RM 20 million and DB603 engine funding was cut entirely. Make the dispute slightly worse and DB601 engine program gets the axe along with DB603 program. A bad deal for German aircraft designers but government bureaucrats are concerned with more pressing matters such as increasing their own political power.
     
  14. JtD

    JtD Member

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    To my knowledge, the 605AM and 605A used the same one. Difference was the water-methanol injection, hence the M. The AS engines used the DB 603 supercharger for better high altitude performance.
     
  15. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the correction.
     
  16. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    Impossible awesome Nazi tech will always win.
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    That depends on when Jumo 211 development hits a technical road block.

    Decision to build Genshagen engine factory was made during 1935 so that's when DB601 program would need to be cancelled. Presumably DB603 program would never exist as it was derived from DB601 program.

    Junkers would have 1935 to 1939 to get Jumo 211 engine program in order. However if there were no other V12 option I suspect RLM would demand results (i.e. promising prototypes) NLT 1937. When Junkers fails to meet the deadline there would be a crash program (no resources spared) to find an alternate V12 engine. Alternate V12 might simply be resurrection of the cancelled DB601 program. Just as RLM historically resurrected canceled DB603 program during 1940.



    Mid war technical snag.
    Let's pick 1941. 1,340hp Jumo 211F engine works but engine has little further development potential.

    1,340hp is adequate until mid 1943 so Germany has some time.
    Fw-190A and BMW801 engine might be the big winner. Production might be increased and it fills the entire single engine fighter aircraft requirement during the final two years of WWII.
     
  18. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    #18 wiking85, Sep 7, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
    AFAIK the Jumo 213 was a development of the Jumo 211, rather like the DB605 was to the DB601. There was no Jumo equivalent of the DB603, which was a larger displacement version of the DB601. So perhaps might we see a Jumo 311 41.5L displacement engine to fill the gap left by no DB603? It wouldn't have the same cooling issues of the historical DB603 thanks to Jumo being able to better design their cooling systems.

    As to the 211 itself, what about the historical developments past the F series?
    From wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_213
     
  19. swampyankee

    swampyankee Active Member

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    Hmm...I guess that's why I'm typing this in German and why my Jewish in-laws are all dead.
     
  20. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    Is this necessary?

    What are you expecting with such a post?

    If we go in all posts/threads to politics, we must simply didn't discuss! Every normal person knows that the nazi regime was evil und a very wrong and dis gusting system.
    But I thought we are also here in this forum to discuss for example technology or advanced military doctrine and so on.........

    If we reduce all to politics every discussion is very useless!
     
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