WW2 pilot conversion time

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hi all, can anyone give me an idea of how long it took an average pilot to convert from one type to another.

I appreciate there will be different times owing to the difference in aircraft they are converting from and to, so going from flying a Hawker Hurricane to then piloting a Curtis P-40, both single engine fighters, could be one of the more simpler changes, where as converting from a Fairey Battle to a Hurricane Mk III would see a big increase in power, as well as taking on a fighter pilot role, along with a ground attack role that he might already be familiar with.

And then there are the bigger aircraft, so going from the single engined Fairey Battle to the twin engine Bristol Blenheim must take longer, but is going from a Blenheim to say a Wellington as easy as the Hurricane to P-40?

 

[EwenS]

In many cases, especially with single pilot types with no extra room in the fuselage, it was a case of being handed the Pilots Notes for the type, and being shown the "taps" in the cockpit by someone with more experience and then off you go.

For 4 engined bomber types there were Heavy Conversion Units to which Pilots could be posted to teach them how to handle the type they would be progressing to.

Air Transport Auxiliary Pilots had a reference book of Ferry Pilots Notes giving them the basic information on how to fly the various types that they might encounter.

 

[drgondog]

My father took 1 1/2 hours of touch and go with P-51B. Next time in P-51B was five days later with two missions on D-Day

 

[R Leonard]

Robert Emmett Riera was a SB2C (and before that an SBD) pilot when he took over as CAG-11 in November 1944. Checked out in and carrier qualified in F6Fs and TBMs in one day.

 

[SaparotRob]

Wow!

 

[R Leonard]

Hell of a nice guy, too.

 

[special ed]

I had a USAF classroom instructor who, on his 18th birthday went to Canada to join the RCAF to get to the UK. At his training, he was told what Britain needed was bomber pilots, so his idea of being a fighter pilot was out. He was trained and shipped out. Upon arrival, the 200 men stood in ranks and the sergeant said, "The paperwork did not make the ship. Bomber pilots here and fighter pilots here." He said he and two others lined up as fighter pilots while the other 197 did as planned. He said he flew 22 ground attack missions, 20 in Hurricanes, 2 in Spitfires, when his squadron commander met him as he taxied in, and took him to the wing commander. He then flew 25 missions in Wellingtons, re uped for more when summoned to wing commander. He had been refusing USAAF requests to transfer. As he had to give up U.S. citizenship to join RCAF, he thought he could remain as he was, but was told U.S. higher up was making it difficult for British commanders who had combat experienced pilots from the states. He accepted transfer to USAAF, his citizenship restored, was accepted as fighter pilot and sent home to train P-47 pilots in the U.S. No more combat.

 

[SplitRz]

He then flew 25 missions in Wellingtons, re uped for more when summoned to wing commander. He had been refusing USAAF requests to transfer. As he had to give up U.S. citizenship to join RCAF, he thought he could remain as he was, but was told U.S. higher up was making it difficult for British commanders who had combat experienced pilots from the states. He accepted transfer to USAAF, his citizenship restored, was accepted as fighter pilot and sent home to train P-47 pilots in the U.S. No more combat.

Given the loss rates of bomber command, something that most likely saved his life.

Fate plays its fickle hand...

 

[special ed]

He told us at the end of 25 missions, the crew members could change crews as they chose. The only member of his crew to stay for the next 25 was the tail gunner who wanted to be dorsal gunner, as he thought is safer. The young gunner was killed on the second mission of the next 25. One could see the grief in my instructor's face in the 1960 retelling of this. We didn't get far enough to find out how many of the second 25 he flew before coming back to the U.S. One thing I have always remembered about the instructor was he was a Captain while his peer instructors were majors. I have suspected the years attached to the RCAF, and maybe the citizenship matter, effected his seniority.

 

[special ed]

Trying to remember now, I can't recall where the gunner's new position was as there is no dorsal gun position.

 

[SplitRz]

Trying to remember now, I can't recall where the gunner's new position was as there is no dorsal gun position.

Wellingtons also had a front turret and later models had waist positions. Mind you, maybe the tail gunner had heard they were going to convert onto Starlings, Halifax or Lancasters?

 

[33k in the air]

He told us at the end of 25 missions, the crew members could change crews as they chose. The only member of his crew to stay for the next 25 was the tail gunner who wanted to be dorsal gunner, as he thought is safer. The young gunner was killed on the second mission of the next 25. One could see the grief in my instructor's face in the 1960 retelling of this. We didn't get far enough to find out how many of the second 25 he flew before coming back to the U.S. One thing I have always remembered about the instructor was he was a Captain while his peer instructors were majors. I have suspected the years attached to the RCAF, and maybe the citizenship matter, effected his seniority.

That reminds me of an account I remember reading of a bomber crew (Lancaster?) whose one member had missed a couple of missions due to illness and a replacement crewman had flown in his place. The main crew had completed its tour but the one crewman was still a couple of mission short, and would have to fly as a replacement on other aircraft. The main crew got together and had a meeting. They agreed to fly extra missions with that crewman so that he could complete his tour with his original crewmates.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Thank you guys, but surely the examples you have provided are individuals, possibly exceptional, but a squadron changing aircraft type would surely take a lot longer.

Now again there would be reasons for that, I'm not sure how easily a aircraft fitter or rigger can move from a Battle to a Hurricane or a Blenheim to a Wellington, as well as the need for some new tools. And a Squadron changing over would see a lot of aircrew changes, with experienced pilots transferring, taking promotions elsewhere, and a lot of new pilots coming in. However, the new pilots would hopefully have trained on the aircraft type they are now going to fly, so its more about operational skills for them. Another factor is the availability of new aircraft, are they being dribbled in, slowing the conversion time. Which leaves us with the rump of experienced pilots converting over. And that's the bit I think I'm most interested in.

 

[R Leonard]

Well, for that matter, my father was an F4F-4 driver in VF-11 on Guadalcanal in the spring and summer of 1943. When the squadron's tour was up, they flew their trusty F4Fs from Guadalcanal to Espiritu Santo – a 3.7 hour flight – on 12 July 1943. The next entry in his pilot's log is for 14 July, an F6F-3 for 1.5 hours. All the remaining flights for the month, on 18, 20, 21, & 23 July were all in F6Fs, a total of 7.1 hours notably 2.3 hours on the 21st, chasing each other around, himself against an F4U flown by one Ken Walsh.

 

[R Leonard]

From there, his next assignment, after returning leave, was to ComFAirWest at San Diego where he was director of VF training. There he checked out in
SNJ on 18 September 43
SBD on 23 September 43
FM-1 on 23 October 43
FM-2 on 26 October 43
F4U-I on 23 November 43
F3A-1 on 25 January 44
TBF-1 on 25 January 44
A6M2 on 14 September 44

A total of five flights in the A6M2.

It was presumed that you knew what you were doing. Someone shows you where everything is and provides a little sage advice on quirks and foibles and away you go.

The A6M was a little different as there were no other A6M pilots available so he had to figure everything out himself – the AAF pilot who had ferried the plane from NAS Anacostia made his delivery and had departed.

I'd guess the FM flights were pretty much no brainers since he had been flying F4Fs since March 1941 including combat tours in VF-42 and VF-3 on Yorktown (CV-5) and in VF-11 from August 1942 to July 1943.

 

[special ed]

Concerning "learn as you go", most of us have seen the video of the new Me 262 pilot receiving instruction by the instructor standing on the wing root while taxiing around.

 

[33k in the air]

Thank you guys, but surely the examples you have provided are individuals, possibly exceptional, but a squadron changing aircraft type would surely take a lot longer.

I've looked at this a bit in regards to RAF Bomber Command squadrons. There seems to be a lot of variety. The following are drawn from the Operations Record Books of the respective squadrons.

012 Squadron — its last op with the Wellington was on 21 Nov. 1942; its next op was with the Lancaster on 3 Jan. 1943 (43 days later)
057 Squadron — its last op with the Wellington III was on 28 Aug. 1942; its next op was with the Lancaster I on 12 Oct. 1942 (45 days later)
090 Squadron — its last op with the Stirling III was on 17 June 1944; its first op with the Lancaster I/III was on 10 June 1944 (7 days of overlap)
083 Squadron — its last op with the Hampden I was on 10 Jan 1942; its next op was with the Manchester I on 28 Jan. 1942 (18 days later)
083 Squadron — its last op with the Manchester I was on 30 May 1942; its first op with the Lancaster was on 29 May 1942 (1 day of overlap)
158 Squadron — its last op with the Wellington was on 1 June 1942; its next op was with the Halifax on 25 June 1942 (24 days later)
408 Squadron — its last op with the Hampden I was on 14 Sept. 1942; its next op was with the Halifax II on 9 Jan. 1943 (117 days later)
408 Squadron — its last op with the Halifax II was on 2 Aug. 1943; its next op was with the Lancaster II on 7 Oct. 1943 (66 days later)
408 Squadron — its last op with the Lancaster II was on 15 Aug. 1944; its first op with the Halifax VII was on 28 July 1944 (18 days of overlap)
433 Squadron — its last op with the Halifax III was on 16 Jan. 1945; its next op was with the Lancaster I on 1 Feb. 1945 (16 days later)
514 Squadron — its last op with the Lancaster II was on 23 Sept. 1944; its first op with the Lancaster I/III was on 21 June 1944 (94 days of overlap)

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Well, for that matter, my father was an F4F-4 driver in VF-11 on Guadalcanal in the spring and summer of 1943. When the squadron's tour was up, they flew their trusty F4Fs from Guadalcanal to Espiritu Santo – a 3.7 hour flight – on 12 July 1943. The next entry in his pilot's log is for 14 July, an F6F-3 for 1.5 hours. All the remaining flights for the month, on 18, 20, 21, & 23 July were all in F6Fs, a total of 7.1 hours notably 2.3 hours on the 21st, chasing each other around, himself against an F4U flown by one Ken Walsh.

Hi R Leonard, thank you for sharing such personal details, and please don't take this as a criticism of your dad, but it sounds like he was a bit more than just 'experienced', that's a lot of different aircraft to fly in the space of a year. Do you know how many hours flying he had in his personal log book by the beginning of July 1943?

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I've looked at this a bit in regards to RAF Bomber Command squadrons. There seems to be a lot of variety. The following are drawn from the Operations Record Books of the respective squadrons.

012 Squadron — its last op with the Wellington was on 21 Nov. 1942; its next op was with the Lancaster on 3 Jan. 1943 (43 days later)
057 Squadron — its last op with the Wellington III was on 28 Aug. 1942; its next op was with the Lancaster I on 12 Oct. 1942 (45 days later)
090 Squadron — its last op with the Stirling III was on 17 June 1944; its first op with the Lancaster I/III was on 10 June 1944 (7 days of overlap)
083 Squadron — its last op with the Hampden I was on 10 Jan 1942; its next op was with the Manchester I on 28 Jan. 1942 (18 days later)
083 Squadron — its last op with the Manchester I was on 30 May 1942; its first op with the Lancaster was on 29 May 1942 (1 day of overlap)
158 Squadron — its last op with the Wellington was on 1 June 1942; its next op was with the Halifax on 25 June 1942 (24 days later)
408 Squadron — its last op with the Hampden I was on 14 Sept. 1942; its next op was with the Halifax II on 9 Jan. 1943 (117 days later)
408 Squadron — its last op with the Halifax II was on 2 Aug. 1943; its next op was with the Lancaster II on 7 Oct. 1943 (66 days later)
408 Squadron — its last op with the Lancaster II was on 15 Aug. 1944; its first op with the Halifax VII was on 28 July 1944 (18 days of overlap)
433 Squadron — its last op with the Halifax III was on 16 Jan. 1945; its next op was with the Lancaster I on 1 Feb. 1945 (16 days later)
514 Squadron — its last op with the Lancaster II was on 23 Sept. 1944; its first op with the Lancaster I/III was on 21 June 1944 (94 days of overlap)

Hi 33k in the air, thank you for this, its most interesting. I can see how moving from one four engined bomber to another might be considered relatively easy, given similar sizes and engine power, but a twin engine to four is a bit of a bigger jump.

I believe the RAF practiced a similar instrument layout in their aircraft cockpits, to help with conversion, and speaking as a non pilot, I can relate to changing from driving one car to another is relatively easy enough. Except that a mistake in a car is mostly going to cost you some bodywork damage and an insurance claim, while in the air, the claim is on your life. It might be argued that, many squadrons continued ops with the transfer in of pilots already trained or conversion completed, while the others gingerly re-found their feet. Or, more simply, there's a war on, and you got on with it. Of course, what we don't have is the numbers of those who failed to qualify, and lost their lives under the heading of air accident, and there were a LOT of air accidents during WW2.

And lastly, I can't help but ponder on your moniker, which is somewhat unusual, probably relating to 33k hours in your personal flight book, or perhaps, a different achievement, somewhat like those who claim to be in the 'Mile High' club

 

[R Leonard]

Hi R Leonard, thank you for sharing such personal details, and please don't take this as a criticism of your dad, but it sounds like he was a bit more than just 'experienced', that's a lot of different aircraft to fly in the space of a year. Do you know how many hours flying he had in his personal log book by the beginning of July 1943?

As of 28 June 1943, the last day he flew that month, he had acquired 1008 hours.

Regretfully, my father's first pilot's log went down on Yorktown. I have a copy of a VF-42 report filed on 1 May 1942 that lists all the squadron's pilots and their accumulated flight hours as of 30 April 1942. In my father's case that came to 635.3, having been designated a Naval Aviator in November 1940. His first squadron, where he reported in January 1941, was VS-41 aboard USS Ranger and flying SBC-4. The squadron was redesignated as VF-42 in late February 1941 and began transition to the F4F-3. VF-42 went aboard USS Yorktown in June 1941, replacing VF-5, which was starting its transition from the F3F to the F4F, and was still aboard when the ship left Norfolk for the Pacific after the Pearl Harbor attack. VF-42 was Yorktown's VF squadron through the Battle of the Coral Sea. For the Midway deployment, VF-3 moved aboard, but over half the pilots in VF-3 were actually from VF-42. A Lieutenant (jg), my father was the senior of the 16 VF-42 pilots temporarily assigned to VF-3. He was also the third ranking pilot, thus filling the Flight Officer billet, in the squadron (actually, in either squadron, VF-42 or VF-3). When the VF-3 executive officer, Lieutenant Commander Don Lovelace was killed in a flight deck landing accident on 28 May 1942, my father moved up to the XO job, but retained his FO duties through the battle. When the smoke cleared, Thach, and those VF-3 pilots who had refugeed aboard Enterprise with their F4Fs, went over to USS Hornet to make up the losses in VF-8. This created an organization that became known as VF-3-42-8, for which Thach, the senior VF pilot aboard, retained my father as his XO.

After returning to Pearl Harbor after Midway, using the reports on Coral Sea that the VF-42 command element had at Ewa Field, my father, and the surviving VF-42 pilots proceeded to reconstruct their flight logs. My father's log is pointedly numbered #2 and notes on the first page the 635.3 hours brought forward as of 30 April 1942 (aircraft types not noted). It then shows, and notes as such, the reconstruction of flight operations, based on reports, from 4 May 42 to Yorktown's arrival at Pearl after Coral Sea, plus flights made in the course of the Battle of Midway deployment, operating from Yorktown, Enterprise, and Hornet.

Anyway, using his Log #2, starting on 4 May 1942 and running through 28 August 1945 (this is as far as I've bothered to spreadsheet this log book . . . and there are three more) he flew a total of 818.8 hours in 526 flights:

383.6 hours / 235 flights in the F4F-4
168.9 / 104 in the F6F-3
64.1 / 52 in the FM-2
42.5 / 31 in the F4U-1A
30.9 / 13 in the F4F-3 (remember, all F4F-3 flight data prior to 4 May 42 was lost)
25.1 / 12 in the FM-1
19.1 / 12 in the F6F-5
10.5 / 6 in the F4U-4
9.8 / 8 in the SBD-3
8.5 / 3 in the F4U-1C
7.3 / 5 in the SNJ-5
6.6 / 6 in the F4U-1
6.1 / 6 in the JRB-4
5.2 / 6 in the SNJ-3
4.9 / 3 in the A6M5
4.6 / 6 in the A6M2
4.4 / 2 in the F6F-5E
2.7 / 2 in the SBD-5
2.6 / 2 in the FR-1
2.4 / 2 in the F3A-1
2.3 / 2 in the SNJ-4
1.9 / 2 in the SC-1
1.0 / 1 in the F7F-2N
0.9 / 1 in the SNJ-2
0.8 / 1 in the SOC-1
0.7 / 1 in the XFR-1
0.7 / 1 in the P-40E
0.7 / 1 in the TBF-1

He had a 33-year commissioned service career, commissioned from USNA in 1938 and retired, a Rear Admiral, in 1971, although he was not on flight status after 1966. In the course of his USN flying, he flew 49 different types and 36 variants of 16 of those types. Qualified following types/type variants:

AD-2
AD-3Q
AD-4Q
AD-5N
AD-6
AM-1
F2G-1
F2G-2
F2H-1
F2H-2
F2H-3
F2H-4
F3A-1
F3D-2
F3F-1
F3H-2N
F4B-4
F-4D
F4F-3
F4F-4
F4U-1
F4U-1A
F4U-1C
F4U-4
F4U-5
F4U-5N
F6F-3
F6F-5
F7F-2N
F7F-3N
F7U-3 (J-35)
F7U-3 (J-46)
F-86 (RCAF)
F-86-A5
F8F-1
F8F-2
F8U-1
F9F-2
F9F-5
F9F-6
F9F-7
F9F-8
F9F-8T
FD-1/FH-1
FJ-1
FJ-3
FM-1
FM-2
FR-1
JRB-4
N3N-1
O3U-2
P-40E
P-51C
P-59B
P-80
S-2E
SB2C-4
SB2C-5
SBC-4
SBD-3
SBD-5
SBU-4
SC-1
SNJ-2
SNJ-3
SNJ-4
SNJ-5
SOC-1
SU-2/3
T28-B
T2V
T-39
TBF-1
TF-1/C-1A
TV-2
XBT2D-1
XF15C-1
XF2G-1
XF7F-2
XF8B-1
XFR-1
A6M2
A6M5
Mosquito (B35)

I think that's all.

Rich