WW2 pilot conversion time

[SplitRz]

It might be argued that, many squadrons continued ops with the transfer in of pilots already trained or conversion completed, while the others gingerly re-found their feet. Or, more simply, there's a war on, and you got on with it. Of course, what we don't have is the numbers of those who failed to qualify, and lost their lives under the heading of air accident, and there were a LOT of air accidents during WW2.

I believe OTUs were often considered pretty hazardous places. Even the instructors were known to refer to inexperienced trainees as 'huns', in as much that they might be considered to be as dangerous to themselves as the enemy.

It would be interesting (and probably sobering) to see what the accident rates were.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

As of 28 June 1943, the last day he flew that month, he had acquired 1008 hours.

Hi Rich, I think that's a lot of hours, and much of it operational, not under peacetime conditions, so VERY experienced. And clearly, seeing the large number of aircraft he flew, extremely competent.

When the VF-3 executive officer, Lieutenant Commander Don Lovelace was killed in a flight deck landing accident on 28 May 1942, my father moved up to the XO job, but retained his FO duties through the battle.

And this adds another dimension to the problems of conversions over to other aircraft, operating off a moving aircraft carrier, and as you illustrated, deadly, even to an experienced aviator like the named Lt Cmdr.

He had a 33-year commissioned service career, commissioned from USNA in 1938 and retired, a Rear Admiral, in 1971, although he was not on flight status after 1966. In the course of his USN flying, he flew 49 different types and 36 variants of 16 of those types. Qualified following types/type variants:

Making flag rank marks him out as extremely capable, generally the USN didn't promote idiots, far from it!. The large number of aircraft flown shows his adaptability, although I suspect, rather like a kid in a sweet shop, if you love flying, and I'm sure he did, there must be a joy in flying something a little bit different, almost a boyish pleasure when your a master of your trade, and if you're given the chance, why not take it.

Thank you for sharing that with us Rich, I'm sure your proud of your dad, and I bet you have some lovely tales to tell of him.

 

[special ed]

As of 28 June 1943, the last day he flew that month, he had acquired 1008 hours.

Regretfully, my father's first pilot's log went down on Yorktown. I have a copy of a VF-42 report filed on 1 May 1942 that lists all the squadron's pilots and their accumulated flight hours as of 30 April 1942. In my father's case that came to 635.3, having been designated a Naval Aviator in November 1940. His first squadron, where he reported in January 1941, was VS-41 aboard USS Ranger and flying SBC-4. The squadron was redesignated as VF-42 in late February 1941 and began transition to the F4F-3. VF-42 went aboard USS Yorktown in June 1941, replacing VF-5, which was starting its transition from the F3F to the F4F, and was still aboard when the ship left Norfolk for the Pacific after the Pearl Harbor attack. VF-42 was Yorktown's VF squadron through the Battle of the Coral Sea. For the Midway deployment, VF-3 moved aboard, but over half the pilots in VF-3 were actually from VF-42. A Lieutenant (jg), my father was the senior of the 16 VF-42 pilots temporarily assigned to VF-3. He was also the third ranking pilot, thus filling the Flight Officer billet, in the squadron (actually, in either squadron, VF-42 or VF-3). When the VF-3 executive officer, Lieutenant Commander Don Lovelace was killed in a flight deck landing accident on 28 May 1942, my father moved up to the XO job, but retained his FO duties through the battle. When the smoke cleared, Thach, and those VF-3 pilots who had refugeed aboard Enterprise with their F4Fs, went over to USS Hornet to make up the losses in VF-8. This created an organization that became known as VF-3-42-8, for which Thach, the senior VF pilot aboard, retained my father as his XO.

After returning to Pearl Harbor after Midway, using the reports on Coral Sea that the VF-42 command element had at Ewa Field, my father, and the surviving VF-42 pilots proceeded to reconstruct their flight logs. My father's log is pointedly numbered #2 and notes on the first page the 635.3 hours brought forward as of 30 April 1942 (aircraft types not noted). It then shows, and notes as such, the reconstruction of flight operations, based on reports, from 4 May 42 to Yorktown's arrival at Pearl after Coral Sea, plus flights made in the course of the Battle of Midway deployment, operating from Yorktown, Enterprise, and Hornet.

Anyway, using his Log #2, starting on 4 May 1942 and running through 28 August 1945 (this is as far as I've bothered to spreadsheet this log book . . . and there are three more) he flew a total of 818.8 hours in 526 flights:

383.6 hours / 235 flights in the F4F-4
168.9 / 104 in the F6F-3
64.1 / 52 in the FM-2
42.5 / 31 in the F4U-1A
30.9 / 13 in the F4F-3 (remember, all F4F-3 flight data prior to 4 May 42 was lost)
25.1 / 12 in the FM-1
19.1 / 12 in the F6F-5
10.5 / 6 in the F4U-4
9.8 / 8 in the SBD-3
8.5 / 3 in the F4U-1C
7.3 / 5 in the SNJ-5
6.6 / 6 in the F4U-1
6.1 / 6 in the JRB-4
5.2 / 6 in the SNJ-3
4.9 / 3 in the A6M5
4.6 / 6 in the A6M2
4.4 / 2 in the F6F-5E
2.7 / 2 in the SBD-5
2.6 / 2 in the FR-1
2.4 / 2 in the F3A-1
2.3 / 2 in the SNJ-4
1.9 / 2 in the SC-1
1.0 / 1 in the F7F-2N
0.9 / 1 in the SNJ-2
0.8 / 1 in the SOC-1
0.7 / 1 in the XFR-1
0.7 / 1 in the P-40E
0.7 / 1 in the TBF-1

He had a 33-year commissioned service career, commissioned from USNA in 1938 and retired, a Rear Admiral, in 1971, although he was not on flight status after 1966. In the course of his USN flying, he flew 49 different types and 36 variants of 16 of those types. Qualified following types/type variants:

AD-2
AD-3Q
AD-4Q
AD-5N
AD-6
AM-1
F2G-1
F2G-2
F2H-1
F2H-2
F2H-3
F2H-4
F3A-1
F3D-2
F3F-1
F3H-2N
F4B-4
F-4D
F4F-3
F4F-4
F4U-1
F4U-1A
F4U-1C
F4U-4
F4U-5
F4U-5N
F6F-3
F6F-5
F7F-2N
F7F-3N
F7U-3 (J-35)
F7U-3 (J-46)
F-86 (RCAF)
F-86-A5
F8F-1
F8F-2
F8U-1
F9F-2
F9F-5
F9F-6
F9F-7
F9F-8
F9F-8T
FD-1/FH-1
FJ-1
FJ-3
FM-1
FM-2
FR-1
JRB-4
N3N-1
O3U-2
P-40E
P-51C
P-59B
P-80
S-2E
SB2C-4
SB2C-5
SBC-4
SBD-3
SBD-5
SBU-4
SC-1
SNJ-2
SNJ-3
SNJ-4
SNJ-5
SOC-1
SU-2/3
T28-B
T2V
T-39
TBF-1
TF-1/C-1A
TV-2
XBT2D-1
XF15C-1
XF2G-1
XF7F-2
XF8B-1
XFR-1
A6M2
A6M5
Mosquito (B35)

I think that's all.

Rich

Very impressive considering all of the "X" types and the rare and unusual. The USN version of Eric Brown.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I believe OTUs were often considered pretty hazardous places. Even the instructors were known to refer to inexperienced trainees as 'huns', in as much that they might be considered to be as dangerous to themselves as the enemy.

It would be interesting (and probably sobering) to see what the accident rates were.

Hi SplitRz, you got me thinking there, after looking up on Wiki, the number and variation of RAF OTU's, a dimension I hadn't considered was RAF Bomber Command night flying, with the mastery of not only depending on their instrumentation, and using the Gee, H2S and Oboe navigation systems, together with the good old Mark I eyeball.

Again, as I said in an earlier post, converting from a Stirling to a Lancaster, would have been relatively simple, given they're already night flying, but if its earlier in the war and your going from a Blenheim to a Wellington, or harder, a Stirling, as well as night flying, then that must take time.

Quite a lot of combat experienced pilots lost their lives in air accidents, which helps underline how perilous flying was in those days, aside from the war.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm most impressed by that list of aircraft but I didn't expect to see a P-40E!

 

[33k in the air]

Hi 33k in the air, thank you for this, its most interesting. I can see how moving from one four engined bomber to another might be considered relatively easy, given similar sizes and engine power, but a twin engine to four is a bit of a bigger jump.

I wish I had more examples, but those are the only ones I've gone through at present.

Regarding the instances of overlap between aircraft types, it seems in some cases the squadron was taken off active duty while converting to a new aircraft type, while in other cases the squadron remained active and the conversion was gradual, with the older type remaining in service with the squadron but in diminishing numbers as the conversion progressed.

And lastly, I can't help but ponder on your moniker, which is somewhat unusual, probably relating to 33k hours in your personal flight book, or perhaps, a different achievement, somewhat like those who claim to be in the 'Mile High' club

The first guess is correct, but referring not to me but rather my father who accumulated over 33,000 hours in his log book during his civilian flying career, accomplished in a variety of aircraft ranging from the De Havilland Beaver to the Boeing 737.

 

[R Leonard]

I'm most impressed by that list of aircraft but I didn't expect to see a P-40E!

NAS Maui 16 Jan 1943

 

[Barrett]

What Rich said.

I was acquainted with Adm. Riera's daughter--dined at her restaurant a time or two. I knew from my Air Group 11 research that his Hellcat "Fam One" was off Hornet's port catapult. Did not know about the TBM flight!

Tom Blackburn's VF-17 exec, Rog Hedrick, became CO of VF-84 when it transitioned from Hellcats to Corsairs. There was some um trepidation in the ranks. Rgn said, "They all have a stick and a throttle. You're naval aviators. Go fly 'em." And they did.

In the 80s when I was aces secretary I conducted an air combat poll and got 200+ replies. One question was how much time in type before first mission. The F-86 was illustrative. High of about 200. Low was 1.00.

We can debate The Greatest Generation Thing but IMO there's no doubt about TGG of aviators. From 80-knot biplanes to Mach 2 in one career.

 

[MIflyer]

I read where a P-47 unit was in Germany at the end of the war and the pilots were told they could go home but first had to train the new pilots who would replace them.

The new pilots turned out to be a bunch of US Army glider pilots who had no powered aircraft experience. Go from a CG-4A to a P-47D. I wonder what that conversion time was?

 

[elbmc1969]

Doug Johnstone explained how the training programme was run: 'As far as pilot conversion was concerned, this was very brief;, as there was no dual control in the Vultee it consisted of a cockpit check and once thoroughly conversant with the layout of the cockpit you were on your own! The trainees were drawn from the service Wirraway training schools at Wagga and Dembirguin. On arrival at the OTU there were an equal number of pilots and wireless operator/air gunners, and they were given time to get to know each other and decide how they wished to crew up as it was important that they be compatible and got on well together. Once that was sorted out they then trained as a crew and were posted together to a squadron on completion of their training.

'In November 1942 the unit moved to Williamstown, NSW, which was to be its home for the rest of its life. During this time aircraft strength was increased to meet the training needs and generally the aircraft performed well although casualties were suffered, which was to be expected considering the nature of the training and the inexperience of the trainees. In the main, casualties were caused by failure to recover from a dive, either because of poor technique or elevator failure during, or before, pull-out.'

Vengeance!
The Vultee Vengeance Dive Bomber
Peter C. Smith

 

[drgondog]

I believe OTUs were often considered pretty hazardous places. Even the instructors were known to refer to inexperienced trainees as 'huns', in as much that they might be considered to be as dangerous to themselves as the enemy.

It would be interesting (and probably sobering) to see what the accident rates were.

My uncle and namesake was an instructor killed by his student. My father got the news about his younger brother when he returned from the last Shuttle Misssion four days later.

 

[SplitRz]

My uncle and namesake was an instructor killed by his student. My father got the news about his younger brother when he returned from the last Shuttle Misssion four days later.

What a tragic illustration of the dangers of instruction. My condolences.