WW2 Tank Gun Comparison

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by Soren, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    WW2 Tank Gun comparison

    I thought it would be interesting to compare the performance, potency energy of the premier high velocity tank guns of the west in WW2 in depth detail, so here we go.

    8.8cm KwK43 L/71

    Projectile weight: 10.4 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.910
    Muzzle Velocity: 1000 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 5200 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 85.49 KJ

    7.5cm KwK42 L/70

    Projectile weight: 6.8 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.719
    Muzzle Velocity: 936 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 2979 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 67.43 KJ

    7.62cm 17pdr

    Projectile weight: 7.7 kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: 1.886
    Muzzle Velocity: 883 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3001 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 65.8 KJ

    9.0cm M3 L/53

    Projectile Weight: 10.94 kg (APBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.921
    Muzzle Velocity: 853 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3980 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 62.56 KJ

    8.8cm KwK36 L/56

    Projectile weight: 10.4 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.910
    Muzzle Velocity: 773 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3107 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 51.09 KJ

    7.6cm M1 L/55

    Projectile weight: 7.0 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.724
    Muzzle Velocity: 792 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 2195 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 48.38 KJ

    7.5cm KwK40 L/48

    Projectile weight: 6.8 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.719
    Muzzle Velocity: 790 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 2122 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 48.03 KJ


    The best performers in terms of their size compared to their potency energy are clearly the 8.8cm KwK43, 7.5cm KwK42 7.62cm 17pdr, these three also feature the best penetrative performance of all the guns above which is also proportionate to their KE pr. cm^2.

    Next I'll post the Aberdeen test results for each gun against 240 BHN RHA armour.
     
  2. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Executive, Consulting
    Location:
    Scurry, Texas
    So, in order to discuss performance beyond the muzzle - what are the ballistic coeficients/retained velocity at 1000 and 2000 meters?
     
  3. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well the BC of APCBC, APBC, APC AP projectiles of this kind of caliber are very similar. But looking at penetrative performance over distance the German Pzgr.39 seems to hold its velocity better for any given caliber than the rest, although we're talking small amounts here.

    With a starting velocity of 1,000 m/s (As in the KwK43) the 8.8cm Pzgr.39 retains its speed extremely well, the velocity being in excess of 775 m/s at 2,700m. (Thats faster than the MV of the KwK36)
     
  4. SoD Stitch

    SoD Stitch Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    981
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Heavy Equipment Rental
    Location:
    Pine Mountain Lake, California
    I don't know that much about the specific ballistic characteristics of the various tank guns used during WWII (but apparently you do, Soren), but I do know that I have read in several places that in the opinion of many, the best tank gun was the KwK 43 L/71 as fitted on the Jagdpanther and the Tiger II.

    However, I would be curious to know what the ballistic characteristics of the 12.8cm PaK 44 L/55 as fitted to the Jagdtiger are. I know that it was the largest-calibre tank gun to be used during WWII, but I don't think it was as effective as the KwK 43 L/71; correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  5. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well the 12.8cm Kwk44 L/55 was the largest and most powerful AT gun of WW2, but it fired a two piece round where the projectile charge (Which was contained in a large brass cartridge) were loaded into the breech seperately. This meant a rather low rate of fire, and since the 8.8cm KwK43 already was capable of destroying any Allied tank past 3.5km the 12.8cm KwK44 was unnecessary large powerful, thus less effective than the 8.8cm KwK43.
     
  6. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,097
    Likes Received:
    117
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Consellor
    Location:
    Lincolnshire
    I would be interested in the performance of the APDS shell used in the 17pd. At the time it was quite a revolutionaly shell but I have always wondered how it stacked up against 'normal' shells.

    If you could give some guidance it would be appreciated.
     
  7. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    Well, the good thing about the 12.8 was that it held its energy better over large distances. With the arrival of the IS series, the 8.8 was insufficient over large distances. Plus, the 12.8 was better at destroying fortifications, again over large distances. As such the JagdTiger was excellent if used in the right way: for long range engagements, never close combat.

    Those anyone have any background information on the German 10.5 cm tank cannon? It was to be used with the latest Tiger IIs and E-75s, perhaps also with the JagdPanther II.
    Do you think it also had two piece rounds?

    Kris
     
  8. SoD Stitch

    SoD Stitch Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    981
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Heavy Equipment Rental
    Location:
    Pine Mountain Lake, California
    The 10.5 le FH 18 was originally an artillery piece designed after WWI by Rheinmetall and, later, developed into an anti-aircraft piece during the early part of WWII; it fired single-piece ammunition, including high explosive, smoke, tracer, hollow-charge and incendiary. I don't know much about it's development into an anti-tank piece.
     
  9. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    At any practical range this is completely irrelevant as the energy retention is pretty much the same for both rounds out to 3km.

    That however is completely wrong Civettone, the IS-2 was vulnerable to the 8.8cm KwK43 even past 3.5km, the KwK43 easily penetrating any part of the IS-2's turret beyond this distance, and the lower hull was very vulnerable at this range to the KwK43 as-well.

    The performance of the 8.8cm KwK43 L/71 against 240 BHN RHA armour at the Aberdeen proving grounds was as follows:
    [​IMG]

    As you can see the 8.8cm KwK43 will penetrate 153mm's of high quality armour at 3,000m with its std. AP round, this clearly means that the IS-2 (Which didn't even feature the same quality armour) couldn't feel safe at any range really.

    Nashorn Tiger crews reported the complete destruction of several IS-2 tanks past 4,700m as-well as several SU-122, SU-152 SU-100 TD's .
     
  10. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    SoD, thanks but you're talking about the howitzer artillery gun. I'm talking about a tank gun. It was suppose to be the new gun of the Tiger II and the Panther II. Yet there is little known of its penetration values as the only ones I can find are with the dubious PzGr.rot which are some sort of HEAT shells.


    Soren, I tend to follow official German tests on this. At 2 km penetration was 132mm. A 12,8cm had 148mm.
    Heavier objects tend to hold their energy better. At least with similar resistance and initial muzzle velocity. Or else I don't know why the Germans pushed on with the 12.8.

    Kris
     
  11. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The official German figures were obtained against top quality German armour plates layed back at a 30 degree angle. The results from the tests at the Aberdeen proving grounds were obtained against 240 BHN RHA armour at a vertical impact angle and represents the penetrative capability of the KwK43 against Allied armour.

    The British tested the Pak 43 and obtained the following results against 30 degree sloped armour plates of their own very hard type (Slightly brittle though): 167mm at 1,300y, and 139mm at 2,200y.

    As to why the Germans wanted to adopt the KwK44 12.8cm L/55 as soon as possible, that was purely because of its enormous anti personnel capability. As you can see the penetration performance was similar to that of the 8.8cm KwK43 which was already the most powerful gun to be put on a tank with a turret.
     
  12. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    11,985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    "As you can see the 8.8cm KwK43 will penetrate 153mm's of high quality armour at 3,000m with its std. AP round, this clearly means that the IS-2 (Which didn't even feature the same quality armour) couldn't feel safe at any range really."

    The IS-2 wasn't safe against the Tiger or Panther, let alone the Tiger II, at above combat ranges up to 2km. I've mentioned the poor quality of IS-2 production before.
     
  13. freebird

    freebird Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,650
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    British Columbia
    Do you also have figures for the British 25 pounder? I know it wasn't a great antitank gun, but I have read it was used because of the poor performance of the 2 pounder against the newer German tanks. Was the 25 pounder about 85 mm?
     
  14. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Absolutely Freebird, I'll post it as soon as I get home.
     
  15. freebird

    freebird Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,650
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    British Columbia
    I found the listing for the 25 pounder, its 87.6mm. I think the antitank capability was not great, it was a secondary function (probably used when the 2 pounder became ineffective, before the 6 17 pounder showed up)

    I wonder if they ever used any of the captured 88mm's?

    I copied this from Wikepedia, so take that for what it's worth.

    The 25 pounder's main ammunition was the High Explosive (HE) shell, but it could fire base ejection smoke, star and flare shells, Shell (projectile)#Chemical chemical shells, and smoke shells were sometimes reloaded with propaganda leaflets. In the direct fire role, the 25 pdr was also supplied with a limited amount of 20 pound (9 kg) solid armour piercing (AP) shot, later replaced with a more potent version with a ballistic cap. A shaped charge anti-tank shell was under development in Canada, but the introduction of the 17 Pounder dedicated anti-tank gun ended its development. After the Second World War UK replaced AP shot with a HESH shell.

    Even by WWII standards, the 25 pdr was at the smaller-end of the scale although it had longer range than most other field equipments. However, it was designed to support the proven British doctrine of suppressive (neutralising) fire, not the concept of destructive fire that had proved illusory in the early years of World War 1. Most forces had entered the war with even smaller 75 mm designs, but had quickly moved to 105 mm and larger weapons. Nevertheless the 25 pdr was considered by all to be one of the best artillery pieces in use. The devastation caused by the gun (and the speed at which the British artillery control system could respond) in Normandy and the rest of North-West Europe made many German soldiers believe that the British had secretly deployed an automatic 25 pounder.
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi guys, sorry I haven't posted the Aberdeen test results yet, been away from home abit longer than expected, when I get home this sunday I'll post them.
     
  17. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok guys, here is what you've been waiting for..

    The test firings done at the Aberdeen proving grounds USA revealed the following penetrative performance of the various guns (I added the 25 pdr 122mm D-25T for you guys as-well):

    88mm KwK43 L/71 88mm KwK36 L/56
    [​IMG]

    17 pdr 25 pdr
    [​IMG]

    90mm M3 L/52
    [​IMG]

    75mm KwK42 L/70
    [​IMG]

    122mm D-25T L/46
    [​IMG]


    PS: The reason I'm posting excerpts and not entire pages are for copyright reasons; If you want the performance specs on all the guns then buy the book, its worth every penny!

    Enjoy!
     
  18. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Mechanical enginer
    Location:
    QingDao
    1)Tank gun 75mm-76.2mm

    UK 7.62cm 17pdr L/56
    Projectile weight: 7.71kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: 1.886
    Muzzle Velocity: 883 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3006 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 65.94KJ

    German 7.5cm KwK42 L/70
    Projectile weight: 6.8 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.719
    Muzzle Velocity: 925 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 2909 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 65.88 KJ

    USA 7.6cm M1 L/55

    Projectile weight: 7.0 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.724
    Muzzle Velocity: 792 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 2195 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 48.38 KJ


    2)Standard AA/tank gun 85mm-90mm

    USA 9.0cm M3 L/53
    Projectile Weight: 10.94 kg (APBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.921
    Muzzle Velocity: 853 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3980 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 62.56 KJ

    UK 9.4cm QF3.7 L/50
    Projectile Weight: 12.7 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 792 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3983 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 57.42 KJ

    German 8.8cm KwK36 L/56
    Projectile weight: 10.4 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.910
    Muzzle Velocity: 773 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 3107 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 51.09 KJ

    USSR 8.5cm 52-K L/55
    Projectile weight: 9.2 kg (APBC)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 792 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 2885 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 50.88 KJ


    3) Lengthened AA gun 85mm-90mm

    German 8.8cm KwK43 L/71
    Projectile weight: 10.4 kg (APCBC)
    Sectional Density: 1.910
    Muzzle Velocity: 1000 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 5200 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 85.49 KJ

    USA 9cm T15E2 L/70 (WWII seperated ammo, post war fixed ammo)
    Projectile weight: 10.94 kg (APBC-T)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 975 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 5200 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 81.78 KJ

    USSR 8.5cm D-5S-85BM L/70?
    Projectile weight: 9.2 kg (APBC)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 950 m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 4151 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 73.19 KJ
    (Some recources say 1000-1100m/s muzzle of long 85mm)
    ----------------------------------------------

    4) 100-105mm Tank/AA gun


    USA 10.5cm T5E1
    Projectile weight: 17.69kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 928m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 7187 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 83.04KJ

    USSR 10cm D10T L/54
    Projectile weight: 15.6 kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 900m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 6318 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 80.48 KJ


    German 10.5cm Flak 38-39
    Projectile weight: 15.56kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 880m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 6025 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 69.62KJ


    5) Heavy AA/tank gun 120mm-130mm

    USSR 13cm S-26
    Projectile weight: 33kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 900m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 13365 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 100.74KJ

    USA 12cm M1/T53 L/60
    Projectile weight: 22.7kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 945m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 10136 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 89.67KJ

    German 12.8cm Kwk44 L/55
    Projectile weight: 28.3kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 845m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 10103 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 78.55KJaa

    USSR 12.2cm D25T L/43
    Projectile weight: 25kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 781m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 7625 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 65.26KJ

    6) Super heavy AA/assault gun 150mm-152mm

    Japan 15cm AA gun
    Projectile weight: 50kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 930m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 21623 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 122.42KJ

    USSR 15.2cm ML-20
    Projectile weight: 48.8kg (AP)
    Sectional Density: ***
    Muzzle Velocity: 600m/s
    Total Kinetic Energy: 8784 KJ
    Kinetic Energy pr. cm^2: 48.43KJ

    ------------------------------
    The most dreadful tank/assault gun is USSR 130mm S26 on ISU130 in 1945, but never serviced(not necessary?).


    For German E50/E75 tanks, possible gun is 88mmL/100, 128mmL55, 105mmL?.

    German 128mmL55 is inferior to USSR 130mm S26 and USA 120mm T53 while the latter are probably equipped on allied vehicles if WWII continues.

    German 105mm Flak39 is inferior to USA 105mm T5E1 or USSR 100mm D10T.

    German 88mmL100 is just a tale..............
     
  19. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You know I have to ask, are you Schwarzpanzer mr. Tempest ??

    As for your gun comparison, there are so many inaccuracies in it that it can't be used at all. For one the German 128mm L/55 KwK/PaK44 fired a 28.3 kg APCBC projectile at 845 m/s, making it superior to all other AT guns fielded during the war. Next is the 10.5cm regular solid AP projectile, it weighes 15.56 kg.

    Besides this the Germans were working on a 155mm AT gun even more powerful than the 128mm PaK44, to be used on the E-100 design which was near completion during the end of the war.
     
  20. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Mechanical enginer
    Location:
    QingDao

    You are right, I'll amend my calc. Could you give me some information about German 155mmAT?


    USA 155mm T7 tank gun, 700m/s ,43kg HE shell, fire rate 2/min with 2 loader....


    hmmm......In WWII, USA 120mm M1 AAgun or T53 tank gun is more powerful than 128mm kwk44, but they are in north america, not in Europe.

    120 mm M1 gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Even in Europe, there is USSR 130mm S26 experimental assault gun which is even more powerful than USA T53 tank gun.
     

    Attached Files:

    • rrr.JPG
      rrr.JPG
      File size:
      28.8 KB
      Views:
      76
Loading...

Share This Page