WWII pilot training and progression

[JimmyZ]

Hi all.

I'm looking for information (and / or discussion) on the training path that WWII pilots would have gone through. To be specific, I'm looking for information on what aircraft would have been the first a pilot would have been trained on (if these was more than one, what would have determined which one), the second aircraft, third and so forth, and the amount of hours on each on average before progressing to the next. It would be different for different air forces, and I'm interested in USAAF, USN, USMC, RAF and FAA. I'm also interested in at what stage bomber pilots would have moved on to different types than the fighter pilots. How would an RAF pilot would have progressed through training to flying a Spitfire, or a USAAF pilot to a B-17 bomber, as an example.

Apologies if it has been discussed before.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Reegor]

I am not aware of any comprehensive comparison across different militaries. And some of the answers changed from year to year.
A great source on USAAF is Rebecca Hancock Cameron's comprehensive book. It's available as a downloadable report, as well as a book. Try this, but you may have to dig harder. https://media.defense.gov/2010/Dec/02/2001329902/-1/-1/0/training_to_fly-2.pdf

 

[fliger747]

USN training during the war pulled in a huge number of students with at least two years of college, especially in Science and Engineering fields. First training in the Navy was in the robust Stearman biplane. My father went through basic flight training at Grand Prairie Texas, near Dallas Fort Worth. He mentioned that they lost about 5% of the trainees in fatal accidents...

For Navy pilots the next step was the SNJ, also known as AT6 and Harvard. A friend who has flown both ST6 and Mustang says the Mustang should have been used as the trainer for the AT6. At some point here pilot trainees would be selected or assigned to some advanced category such as multi engine etc.

 

[BiffF15]

USN training during the war pulled in a huge number of students with at least two years of college, especially in Science and Engineering fields. First training in the Navy was in the robust Stearman biplane. My father went through basic flight training at Grand Prairie Texas, near Dallas Fort Worth. He mentioned that they lost about 5% of the trainees in fatal accidents...

For Navy pilots the next step was the SNJ, also known as AT6 and Harvard. A friend who has flown both ST6 and Mustang says the Mustang should have been used as the trainer for the AT6. At some point here pilot trainees would be selected or assigned to some advanced category such as multi engine etc.

Fliger,

I've heard the same from two buds who have flown both (Mustang AT-6 comparo). The T-38 was much more difficult to fly than the Eagle, but it was an older design made to prep kids for the Century series fighters and not something as forgiving as the F15. However, the same probably goes for aircraft improvements during the war. Fighters were improved, T-6s not so much.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Elvis]

Hi all.

I'm looking for information (and / or discussion) on the training path that WWII pilots would have gone through. To be specific, I'm looking for information on what aircraft would have been the first a pilot would have been trained on (if these was more than one, what would have determined which one), the second aircraft, third and so forth, and the amount of hours on each on average before progressing to the next. It would be different for different air forces, and I'm interested in USAAF, USN, USMC, RAF and FAA. I'm also interested in at what stage bomber pilots would have moved on to different types than the fighter pilots. How would an RAF pilot would have progressed through training to flying a Spitfire, or a USAAF pilot to a B-17 bomber, as an example.

Apologies if it has been discussed before.

Cheers
Jimmy

They likely started on my signature avatar, then to a basic trainer, an advanced trainer and finally, the real deal.

Elvis

 

[fliger747]

The CPTC guys may have started out with the J3 or equivalent but my understanding is that the wartime service training centers did not.

 

[Shortround6]

The US (Army at least) had Primary trainers that came in a wide variety

These were just some of them. After a number of hours on these the student pilot would graduate to the BT series
(basic trainer) like the BT 13

From wiki so usual disclaimer.
" The BT-13 had a more powerful engine and was faster and heavier than the primary trainer. It required the student pilot to use two way radio communications with the ground and to operate landing flaps and a two-position Hamilton Standard controllable-pitch propeller. It did not, however, have retractable landing gear nor a hydraulic system. The flaps were operated by a crank-and-cable system. "
After a number of hours using this type of trainer the student would graduate to an Advanced trainer like the AT-6.

As to which specific types (there were a lot of different primary trainers) that might depend simply on which base/training school they went to. many schools only had a few different types.

 

[Elvis]

Was the Stearman considered a Primary Trainer or a Basic trainer?

 

[daveT]

Primary pilot training was accomplished in the Stearman PT-17 built by the Stearman Aircraft Company of Wichita, Kansas, which was acquired by Boeing in 1934. Over 10,000 Stearman (Boeing) Model 75, widely known as the Stearman, or Kaydet were manufactured in the United States as the primary trainer for the military. The wings were constructed of wood frames covered in fabric. The fuselage had a tough, welded steel framework, also fabric covered. The plane featured a fixed tail wheel undercarriage, and overall construction of the aircraft was considered rugged. The Stearman could carry two, in dual tandem cockpits. A five cylinder Continental R-670 radial engine powered the plane to a top speed of 124 mph and a range of 505 miles. Cruising speed for the PT-17 trainer was just over 100 mph. The Stearman had a wingspan of 32 feet, a height of 9 feet, and a length of 24 feet. The ceiling was 11,200 feet, and it had a maximum takeoff weight of 2,717 lbs. The plane was easy to fly, and relatively forgiving of new pilots. It gained a reputation as a rugged airplane and a good teacher.

 

[Shortround6]

PT= primary trainer.

There may have been a bit of overlap but pretty much the program called for XX hours on primary trainers, YY on basic and ZZ on advanced. A student pilot might repeat a week or two of instruction if he showed promise but there were only so many chances before being washed out.

Other AT trainers covered multi-engine and crew training.

 

[BobB]

I met a former B-17 pilot who told me that he took his multi-engine training in AT-6's. Due to circumstances, the discussion had to go in different directions so I didn't get details. I assume that there was a shortage of multi-engine trainers early in the war so they figured the AT-6 could be used for instrument training(which the fighter curriculum was deficient on) and formation flying, and the B-17 co-pilot could learn the rest "on-the-job".

 

[JimmyZ]

I am not aware of any comprehensive comparison across different militaries. And some of the answers changed from year to year.
A great source on USAAF is Rebecca Hancock Cameron's comprehensive book. It's available as a downloadable report, as well as a book. Try this, but you may have to dig harder. https://media.defense.gov/2010/Dec/02/2001329902/-1/-1/0/training_to_fly-2.pdf

Thanks for the link, I'll have a look.

So the general consensus is (for the USAAF at least) a trainee pilot would have progressed through PT, BT and then AT trainers. Anyone have any idea how many hours on each before progressing?

Would any pilots have jumped directly from a PT trainer like the Stearman to a AT trainer like the Texan/Harvard?

And would bomber pilots have moved on to a multi engined trainer before being trained on something like a B-24 or B-17?

As for the RAF, assuming they did primary training on the Tiger Moth, what would have been the next step?

 

[daveT]

Primary Pilot Training taught basic flight using two-seater training aircraft. This was usually done by Contract Schools (civilian pilot training schools) through the Civil Aeronautics Authority – War Training Service (CAA-WTS). Cadets got around 60 to 65 Flight Hours in Stearman, Ryan, or Fairchild Primary Trainers before going to Basic.[7]

Basic Pilot Training taught the cadets to fly in formation, fly by instruments or by aerial navigation, fly at night, and fly for long distances. Cadets got about 70 Flight Hours in BT-9 or BT-13 Basic Trainers before being promoted to Advanced.[8]

Advanced Pilot Training placed the graduates in two categories: single-engined and multi-engined. Single-engined pilots flew the AT-6 Advanced Trainer. Multi-engined pilots learned to fly the AT-9, AT-10 or AT-17 Advanced Trainers[9]. Cadets were supposed to get a total of about 75 to 80 Flight Hours before graduating and getting their Pilot's Wings.[10]

Transition Training Single-engined pilots transitioned to fighters and fighter-bombers and multi-engined pilots transitioned to transports or bombers. Pilots got 2 months of training before being sent into combat duty.

I put this together some time ago when comparing USAAF and RAF training.

USAAF training had four phases:-
• Primary Flying School
• Basic Flying School
• Advanced Flying School
• Transition Training

Primary Flying School
The Primary Flying schools were civilian operated under contract for the USAAF. These civilian schools used Stearman, Ryan and Fairchild trainers owned by the USAAF, but their flight instructors were civilian employees. Each cadet received 60 hours of flight training in nine weeks.

Basic Flying School
Here the aircraft were changed to BT-9 or Bt-13. Cadets were learned how to fly at night, by instruments, information and cross-country from one point to another. Also, for the first time, he operated a plane equipped with a two-way radio and a two-pitch propeller. This training took 9 weeks and involved about 70 hours in the air. It should be noted that the schools were now under USAAF control and apart from the additional complexity of the training and machinery, there was also the cultural shock as discipline was more rigorous.

Advanced Flying School
Again we have a change in aircraft to the AT-6 for future fighter pilots. The time in training was nine weeks and took about 70 hours flying time. The emphasis was on learning aerial gunnery as well as combat manoeuvres and increasing their skills in navigation, formation and instrument flying.

Transition Training
This is where the cadet was introduced to the aircraft to be used in combat. For a fighter pilot this took two months and about 50 hours, but was more for multi engine pilots.

Other Items
Personally I was surprised by the lack of time allocated by the USAAF to this vital period. I think that the impact was reduced as most trainees were sent to units in the USA giving them a period of training and adjustment before being thrown into battle. If anyone has more information on this I would appreciate it.
One other item of note was that each level of training Primary, Basic, Advanced and Transition was undertaken at different bases.

Summary
USAAF Flight Training covered 29 weeks with approximately 260 hours.

The main source I used is as follows
Factsheets : AAF Training During WWII

 

[daveT]

standard flying training stages chart

 

[Elvis]

As for the RAF, assuming they did primary training on the Tiger Moth, what would have been the next step?

I seem to remember some old pilot being asked about training and his answer was that they learned the basics in the Tiger Moth, then straight to whatever plane they were to be assigned to for any further training.
The jist I've always understood is that the British were very keen to getting the pilot up to speed as quickly as possible by making him Fly-The-Plane.
I guess the Moth wasn't very forgiving if you made a "boo-boo" and would let you know very quickly.

Elvis

 

[Glider]

Cheeky Bugger
In the same way its good practice to quote the source of a photograph, its also generally considered good practice to quote the source of your posting, which incidentally you didn't even go to the effort of changing many of the words.

For those that are interested the link below is the original posting I did some time ago

RAF Pilot Training in WW2

Primary Pilot Training taught basic flight using two-seater training aircraft. This was usually done by Contract Schools (civilian pilot training schools) through the Civil Aeronautics Authority – War Training Service (CAA-WTS). Cadets got around 60 to 65 Flight Hours in Stearman, Ryan, or Fairchild Primary Trainers before going to Basic.[7]

Basic Pilot Training taught the cadets to fly in formation, fly by instruments or by aerial navigation, fly at night, and fly for long distances. Cadets got about 70 Flight Hours in BT-9 or BT-13 Basic Trainers before being promoted to Advanced.[8]

Advanced Pilot Training placed the graduates in two categories: single-engined and multi-engined. Single-engined pilots flew the AT-6 Advanced Trainer. Multi-engined pilots learned to fly the AT-9, AT-10 or AT-17 Advanced Trainers[9]. Cadets were supposed to get a total of about 75 to 80 Flight Hours before graduating and getting their Pilot's Wings.[10]

Transition Training Single-engined pilots transitioned to fighters and fighter-bombers and multi-engined pilots transitioned to transports or bombers. Pilots got 2 months of training before being sent into combat duty.

I put this together some time ago when comparing USAAF and RAF training.

USAAF training had four phases:-
• Primary Flying School
• Basic Flying School
• Advanced Flying School
• Transition Training

Primary Flying School
The Primary Flying schools were civilian operated under contract for the USAAF. These civilian schools used Stearman, Ryan and Fairchild trainers owned by the USAAF, but their flight instructors were civilian employees. Each cadet received 60 hours of flight training in nine weeks.

Basic Flying School
Here the aircraft were changed to BT-9 or Bt-13. Cadets were learned how to fly at night, by instruments, information and cross-country from one point to another. Also, for the first time, he operated a plane equipped with a two-way radio and a two-pitch propeller. This training took 9 weeks and involved about 70 hours in the air. It should be noted that the schools were now under USAAF control and apart from the additional complexity of the training and machinery, there was also the cultural shock as discipline was more rigorous.

Advanced Flying School
Again we have a change in aircraft to the AT-6 for future fighter pilots. The time in training was nine weeks and took about 70 hours flying time. The emphasis was on learning aerial gunnery as well as combat manoeuvres and increasing their skills in navigation, formation and instrument flying.

Transition Training
This is where the cadet was introduced to the aircraft to be used in combat. For a fighter pilot this took two months and about 50 hours, but was more for multi engine pilots.

Other Items
Personally I was surprised by the lack of time allocated by the USAAF to this vital period. I think that the impact was reduced as most trainees were sent to units in the USA giving them a period of training and adjustment before being thrown into battle. If anyone has more information on this I would appreciate it.
One other item of note was that each level of training Primary, Basic, Advanced and Transition was undertaken at different bases.

Summary
USAAF Flight Training covered 29 weeks with approximately 260 hours.

The main source I used is as follows
Factsheets : AAF Training During WWII

 

[daveT]

The British trained pilots in the U.S. and those that did I believe followed the same training progression as the Americans.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Everybody here seems to be ignoring the VERY FRST flight instruction most USAAF and USN cadets got: the preflight selection program. There were aircrew OCS/preflight training programs set up on university and college campuses all across the country to give a basic grounding in military aeronautics as well as evaluate candidates for different crew positions. Each of these was tied to a contract flight school that gave all candidates 20-30 hours in REAL simple planes such as J3s and Taylorcrafts to determine aptitudes for pilot vs non-pilot crew assignments.
We had two here in Vermont, one attached to Norwich University and one at University of Vermont. As late as the 1980s the local flight school was still providing that service to AFROTC at Norwich.
Mid 1944, when air combat attrition was discovered to be less than projected and infantry much higher, these schools were suddenly abolished and the instructors and other personnel immediately drafted.
The aircraft for these schools were forcibly "loaned" to the government for the duration by their reluctant owners, but then sold as surplus postwar rather than returned.
My boss at the flight school had been chief instructor in the Norwich U contract school during the war, and failed his induction physical when he got drafted, but several of his instructors were KIA at Iwo and Okinawa.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Hey, JimmyZ, I've got a box of WWII Army Air Force textbooks and training materials given to me years ago by a B17 pilot who used to hang out at a flight school where I worked. I've read them til they're dog eared and now I need to downsize. You want them?
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Elvis]

Everybody here seems to be ignoring the VERY FRST flight instruction most USAAF and USN cadets got: the preflight selection program. There were aircrew OCS/preflight training programs set up on university and college campuses all across the country to give a basic grounding in military aeronautics as well as evaluate candidates for different crew positions. Each of these was tied to a contract flight school that gave all candidates 20-30 hours in REAL simple planes such as J3s and Taylorcrafts to determine aptitudes for pilot vs non-pilot crew assignments.
We had two here in Vermont, one attached to Norwich University and one at University of Vermont. As late as the 1980s the local flight school was still providing that service to AFROTC at Norwich.
Mid 1944, when air combat attrition was discovered to be less than projected and infantry much higher, these schools were suddenly abolished and the instructors and other personnel immediately drafted.
The aircraft for these schools were forcibly "loaned" to the government for the duration by their reluctant owners, but then sold as surplus postwar rather than returned.
My boss at the flight school had been chief instructor in the Norwich U contract school during the war, and failed his induction physical when he got drafted, but several of his instructors were KIA at Iwo and Okinawa.
Cheers,
Wes

Not that I'm disagreeing with you Wes (because I'm not), but were the instructors at least given remittance for the aircraft that the military took?
...and what are instructors doing in a combat zone? Why aren't they back home performing the job they were assigned to?
Again, not disgreeing with you, and I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just having issues wrapping my brain around all this.


Elvis